GUARDLING Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 1. BD dominance is not forever. Their "newness of design" is no longer new. 2. Crown is not an underdog at this point. They have remained in the top 4 since 2008 including 2 silver medals and 1 gold. 3. Cadets have placed out of the top 5 once or twice since 1982. 4. I agree it would be nice to see someone new in the top 3 like Bluecoats or SCV but I would rather it be Bluecoats. I just don't like the fact that one corps may have tons of money and is buying up the best staff money can buy to win. I know life is unfair but I like corps that succeed by sheer talent, emotion and drive. hmmm interesting #4..don't you think those top corps succeed by talent, emotion and drive?. As far as staff. No one has ever won just on those things you mentioned . Corps have needed a good staff in combination with all those things to succeed. One goes with the other. IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 3. Cadets have placed out of the top 5 once or twice since 1982. Just once - 1991 (6th). And heck, they've only been 5th four times in 23 years (1989, 2006, 2008, 2010). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) hmmm interesting #4..don't you think those top corps succeed by talent, emotion and drive?. As far as staff. No one has ever won just on those things you mentioned . Corps have needed a good staff in combination with all those things to succeed. One goes with the other. IMO It's an interesting propostion. Do all corps "purchase" the best staff they can buy? (or.. They can afford?) Is this budget allocation directly and consistently reflected in finals placement? Or is there more to a competitively successful program than deep pockets for a staff? (gonna repost this as a new thread) Edited March 31, 2014 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 It's an interesting propostion. Do all corps "purchase" the best staff they can buy? (or.. They can afford?) Is this budget allocation directly and consistently reflected in finals placement? Or is there more to a competitively successful program than deep pockets for a staff? (gonna repost this as a new thread) maybe all of the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) 1. BD dominance is not forever. Their "newness of design" is no longer new. What does this even mean? Even if you think there's not as much "newness" to what they're doing (which I disagree with), there's no mistaking that they are masters of show design. Whether people like their shows or not, they are extremely well consructed, well staged, and well performed. As for dominance, they've placed 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in 32 out of the past 39 seasons (!!!). The last time they finished as low as 4th was 2005. The last time they finished as low as 5th was 1991 (their lowest finish since 1974). Maybe Stu can whip out the dictionary definition for you, but to me, that seems like it's the closest thing to being "dominant" that DCI has ever seen. With the usual quality of their design and of course their magnificent performance quality, even if they have what they consider to be an "off year," it would be wise to consider them a favorite to medal each and every year. At least until they undergo a considerable staff/design team or management overhaul. Edited March 31, 2014 by seen-it-all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkAnthony Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 1. BD dominance is not forever. Their "newness of design" is no longer new. 2. Crown is not an underdog at this point. They have remained in the top 4 since 2008 including 2 silver medals and 1 gold. 3. Cadets have placed out of the top 5 once or twice since 1982. 4. I agree it would be nice to see someone new in the top 3 like Bluecoats or SCV but I would rather it be Bluecoats. I just don't like the fact that one corps may have tons of money and is buying up the best staff money can buy to win. I know life is unfair but I like corps that succeed by sheer talent, emotion and drive. 2. Yeah, I worded that wrongly. I was more referring to their status as "the peoples' corps" than anything, which I guess doesn't have any connection to underdog other than the fact that it's always gonna be a challenge to knock BD out of first. 3. Their placement at 6th was more my wishful thinking for SCV, Bluecoats and Phantom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) hmmm interesting #4..don't you think those top corps succeed by talent, emotion and drive?. As far as staff. No one has ever won just on those things you mentioned . Corps have needed a good staff in combination with all those things to succeed. One goes with the other. IMO Staffs however increasingly win DCI Championships not performers in competition, as the judging sheets reward Show Designs to such a large degree. Show Design bleeds into all captions in scoring, and it is something now where adults judge other adults, people they know and have for decades, in this insular world. One stark example of this for illustration is the 2012 Cavaliers. They did not lose overall marcher talent that was unprecedented for them from 2011. They had good retention rates. Their 150 performers worked just as hard, just as long, and were just as talented in playing their instuments, and using their guard equiment. But they went from 3rd in 2011 to 8th in 2012, a drop of 5 placement spots. What happened ? Well, we know what happened. They lost Michael Gaines as their Visual Show Designer... 1 staff member.... and that principlally was why they plummeted 5 placements positions from 2011 to 2012... It really did not matter the marcher talent, experience and hard work the Cavs marchers put into their 2012 show in practice and in execution performance. They were doomed in placement that year before they put their unis on for the 1st show. It was not always this way.. performers in competition were principally the key driver of placements in the summer competitions.., but no more. Things change, and so thats that, and we all learn to live with this new reality, or we don't, and we move on. Edited March 31, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) What does this even mean? Even if you think there's not as much "newness" to what they're doing (which I disagree with), there's no mistaking that they are masters of show design. Whether people like their shows or not, they are extremely well consructed, well staged, and well performed. As for dominance, they've placed 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in 32 out of the past 39 seasons (!!!). The last time they finished as low as 4th was 2005. The last time they finished as low as 5th was 1991 (their lowest finish since 1974). Maybe Stu can whip out the dictionary definition for you, but to me, that seems like it's the closest thing to being "dominant" that DCI has ever seen. With the usual quality of their design and of course their magnificent performance quality, even if they have what they consider to be an "off year," it would be wise to consider them a favorite to medal each and every year. At least until they undergo a considerable staff/design team or management overhaul. I think the comment you responded to is saying that things go both ways. Just because you win DCI doesn't mean that your show concept is innovative which is of-course reasonable when you consider the innovative merits of a show are not given out based on its placement but on the content of the show. I think at some point we need to acknowledge that the design trend BD started in 2008, which culminated in intensity in 2010, is now 6 - 4 years old... to put it in perspective the iphone 3g was just getting rolled out. At some point things that were innovative at one point cease to be innovative over time. And I would tend to agree that Blue Devils design, though extremely effective on the sheets, very intellectually motivated with the emphasis on multiple overlapping seemingly chaotic layers, is not as innovative as it once was even though its effectiveness in the competitive arena has not yet waned. Its just one of many possible innovative tangents that we can see from DCI. What's interesting is how many innovative tangents we have yet to see or even think of yet. Edited March 31, 2014 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Staffs however increasingly win DCI Championships not performers in competition, as the judging sheets reward Show Designs to such a large degree. Show Design bleeds into all captions in scoring, and it is something now where adults judge other adults, people they know and have for decades, in this insular world. One stark example of this for illustration is the 2012 Cavaliers. They did not lose overall marcher talent that was unprecedented for them from 2011. They had good retention rates. Their 150 performers worked just as hard, just as long, and were just as talented in playing their instuments, and using their guard equiment. But they went from 3rd in 2011 to 8th in 2012, a drop of 8 placement spots. What happened ? Well, we know what happened. They lost Michael Gaines as their Visual Show Designer... 1 staff member.... and that principlally was why they plummeted 5 placements positions from 2011 to 2012... It really did not matter the marcher talent, experience and hard work the Cavs marchers put into their 2012 show in practice and in execution performance. They were doomed in placement that year before they put their unis on for the 1st show. It was not always this way.. performers in competition were pribcipally the key driver of placements in the summer competitions, but no more. Things change, and so thats that, and we all learn to live with this new reality, or we don't, and we move on. i dont think that really matters. Look at the people who stage every move a skater does...I dont think it takes away from the performer but adds to the program. No matter how good a show is IF the performers doesn't do it right or bring it to life it doesn't matter. design is a strong part of the shows today and to have a complete package, not bits and pieces and random musical selections like we used to have marching squads , arcs and files. Design must be good.If it were just about anything or the random, we could go back in time but it's not like that. I guess youre also saying that. I just happen to think it's a good, no great thing. I think Cavies drop wasn't just in show design, the corps also was younger the next year and things were far from as clean as they were in the past. Did bad show design have to do with the cleaning process? Sure it could be. It's a puzzle I think that needs all pieces fitting together. Edited March 31, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Staffs however increasingly win DCI Championships not performers in competition, as the judging sheets reward Show Designs to such a large degree. Show Design bleeds into all captions in scoring, and it is something now where adults judge other adults, people they know and have for decades, in this insular world. One stark example of this for illustration is the 2012 Cavaliers. They did not lose overall marcher talent that was unprecedented for them from 2011. They had good retention rates. Their 150 performers worked just as hard, just as long, and were just as talented in playing their instuments, and using their guard equiment. But they went from 3rd in 2011 to 8th in 2012, a drop of 8 placement spots. What happened ? Well, we know what happened. They lost Michael Gaines as their Visual Show Designer... 1 staff member.... and that principlally was why they plummeted 5 placements positions from 2011 to 2012... It really did not matter the marcher talent, experience and hard work the Cavs marchers put into their 2012 show in practice and in execution performance. They were doomed in placement that year before they put their unis on for the 1st show. It was not always this way.. performers in competition were pribcipally the key driver of placements in the summer competitions, but no more. Things change, and so thats that, and we all learn to live with this new reality, or we don't, and we move on. Do you enjoy their 2012 production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.