Fan of the Arts Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Sounds like that "S" word...SLO_ _ING...if 4 corps are equally as good...then it should be a four way race..regardless of what the judges "want"...if they "narrow down" that 4th corps before finals...then the Final placements are not decided on performance, but on ease of judging..I would like to see the #1 spot bounce around among several corps right up until the last night...make it a fair fight..one that comes down to one performance...regardless of what corps you are... We all tend to forget even our judges are human and often times show their humanness at the wrong time. Remember when PR (Spartacus year) caught BD in finals after BD had won the whole year? I think the judges did get it right in the end but it should have happened at semi-finals not finals. I'm sure that still has left a nasty taste in BD's mouth. So I am one that believes that the judges will have their minds made up who the contendars (not four corps) are no later than Atlanta. Irving Fan of the Arts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbandman Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Just for giggles, I took the score graph from the Blue Knights website, and drew a line from the 1st score to last score for each corps. Then I extended the line out to project where they might be by Indy. Here is how it came out: (note: the graph only shows WC corps) 1. BD (no lines cross theirs) 2. Crown (parallels BD - about a point below) 3. Bluecoats (passes Cadets around San Antonio) 4. SCV (passes Cadets around Atlanta) 5. Cadets 6. Cavies 7. Blue Knights (passes Phantom around San Antonio) 8. Phantom 9. Madison 10. Boston 11. Crossmen 12. Blue Stars 13. Spirit 14. Colts 15. Oregon Crusaders (passes Troopers around San Antonio) 16. Troopers 17. Pacific Crest 18. Academy 19. Mandarins 20. Jersey Surf 21. Cascades 22. Pioneer Will it turn out exactly like this? I doubt it. (obviously not if you include Open Class). But it was interesting to see the overall trajectory of the scores over the course of the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geluf Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 We all tend to forget even our judges are human and often times show their humanness at the wrong time. Remember when PR (Spartacus year) caught BD in finals after BD had won the whole year? I think the judges did get it right in the end but it should have happened at semi-finals not finals. I'm sure that still has left a nasty taste in BD's mouth. So I am one that believes that the judges will have their minds made up who the contendars (not four corps) are no later than Atlanta. Irving Fan of the Arts Panels are completely different between Quarters, Semis and Finals though. The Semis panel was not the Finals panel. Indeed, on Semis night, Bell and Turner had BD in 4th in GE Music. Griffin had them 4th in Music Ensemble and Prosperie had them 5th in percussion (Ulicny had them 3rd in percussion...but this was back when there were 2 percussion judges for a while). They took first in all other captions. But on Finals night, they dropped to 2nd in Visual Performance, and this time *both* percussion judges gave them 5th (this is the caption that ultimately cost them the gold). The judges don't know what each others ordinal rankings or scores are in the middle of a show. We tend to speak of judges like they are a hive mind with a singular purpose...but that just isn't so. They don't get together, have a meeting and decide "ok, this is who is contending". If that were the case, you'd never see someone like Crown win with a 6th place percussion score. The percussion judge felt Crown only earned 6th...but they still won on the strength of the other captions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The term slotting has two meanings... one is devoid of assessment and the other is the result of assessment. There is nothing sinister about the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikebizkit Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 So, I'm a n00b to this forum. Am I correct to assume that what you all mean by slotting is that the judges have decided the results before actually judging the individual performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Cue the rabid wolves........ Hehehehe Welcome to the Planet:) Yes, slotting refers to the judges putting corps in an order and keeping them there. It's a much maligned argument that you'll see is passionate no matter which side you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan of the Arts Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Panels are completely different between Quarters, Semis and Finals though. The Semis panel was not the Finals panel. Indeed, on Semis night, Bell and Turner had BD in 4th in GE Music. Griffin had them 4th in Music Ensemble and Prosperie had them 5th in percussion (Ulicny had them 3rd in percussion...but this was back when there were 2 percussion judges for a while). They took first in all other captions. But on Finals night, they dropped to 2nd in Visual Performance, and this time *both* percussion judges gave them 5th (this is the caption that ultimately cost them the gold). The judges don't know what each others ordinal rankings or scores are in the middle of a show. We tend to speak of judges like they are a hive mind with a singular purpose...but that just isn't so. They don't get together, have a meeting and decide "ok, this is who is contending". If that were the case, you'd never see someone like Crown win with a 6th place percussion score. The percussion judge felt Crown only earned 6th...but they still won on the strength of the other captions. Tell that to BD....there the ones affected by that finals panel. Irving Fan of the Arts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Irving, I think you've got great views and have gotten insight few of us have. That said I'm not meaning to make you upset or hurt feelings, But I don't feel sorry for BD. When BD or your beloved Cadets loses they retool and win the next year or two. If the judges do have their minds set we'll never know, but they're not supposed to. But here's the thing.... Crown deserved to win last year. regardless of perc they were the stronger of the two corps. Phantom won in 08 cause they deserved it. Not the first time BD had been undefeated only to lose at the bell- See 1988. It happens.... I think when we talk about these title contenders you have to remember there are thousands of members and fans that would love to see their corps even be in the top 3. The Bluecoats I'm sure relish 2010 and have a chance to better that.... They're not going to cry slotting if they don't. I think it's dangerous to assume judges have a hidden agenda esp for those corps that are already at the top. The truth is the top of the game is closer in competition level than ever before and so it is throughout the top 12 and beyond. I respect you my friend, but I have to say that anyone who has inside knowledge of how a constant contender operates should never talk about slotting.... Those who haven't gotten to that point and feel they should've based off name recognition still don't have a beef. It's a subjective human scored event, so it will never be perfect but.... It's a lot better than most systems and I believe the judging community gets it right in the end. Edited July 11, 2014 by wesleyrp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 So, I'm a n00b to this forum. Am I correct to assume that what you all mean by slotting is that the judges have decided the results before actually judging the individual performance? OR... slotting may refer to the practice of determining placement (or slot) after assessment and comparison as a means of determining a score. I.e. corps x was slightly better than corps y... corps y had a 17.5... so I'll slot corps x above corps y thus requiring me to give corps x an 18. This is why during competitive program line-ups, the scores can balloon. This type of judging is not really sinister, but it can result in inconsistency and poor numbers management. Just wait for one of these TOC shows where one of the leaders takes the field early in the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Very well put... Maybe best true statement about what slotting really is.... Slotting refers to what we as fans perceive.... Judges don't judge the overall show they judge their caption. If a corps numbers stay within the same spreads with those they're competing against its because that's the level of talent/show construction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.