The staff merrigoround

[Stu]

And yet there's a whole contingent of fans who DON'T go to shows to see the same kinds of shows you do. If you want your version of entertaining, I'd point you towards Madison Scouts or Phantom Regiment. Other people find Blue Devils or Cadets more entertaining. Still others prefer Bluecoats or Cavaliers. What IS working for DCI is that variety. Personally, I like all kinds of shows for all kinds of reasons. But if any of those styles of shows were all of a sudden not present some group of fans would get disenfranchised.

While I agree that there are 'some' in the audience who prefer the intellectual esoteric over the raw entertainment at DCI shows, and I do not desire to deny them that 'engagement'; but let's place this into the realm of direct observation to figure out what most fans buying the very high priced tickets want to see/hear. Compare overall crowd reaction (i.e. engagement) of the Regiment 2008 Championship announcement to that of the Blue Devils 2012 announcement. The overall crowd was certainly 'engaged' in both instances; but do you really think that DCI's fan base will grow leaps and bounds with the way the crowd was 'engaged' in 2012 by the Blue Devils? However, that is not even my point. What the problem is today is within the interpretation of the word 'engagement' within the GE sheets, especially on the visual side; it is that the intellectual esoteric deep philosophical is now 'always' trumping the shear raw emotional aspects; even if the two shows are presented equally within 'quality and complexity of design' and 'quality of performance'. This is mainly due to the word 'engage' having an intellectual connotation whereas the word 'entertain' has an emotional connotation. And for some reason the word 'entertain' in the Cesario suggested revamp GE sheets was replaced with the word 'engage'; and that in turn shifted the GE focus from emotion to intellectual. Which, I suppose, is fine; but good luck on packing the house with 50,000 people seeking to receive intellectually engagement as opposed to receiving shear raw emotional entertainment.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Stu

[BRASSO]

Is it really fair to claim that because a particular group of fans prefers a style of show, that's the only style of show that should be considered effective or be rewarded?

Yes.

Unless the audience is to be a total non factor in the GE Sheets.

For a point of reference however, the judge that single handedly WROTE the definition of " General Effect" into the DCI first judging sheets in 1972 ( George Oliviero.. still judging Championship week today, by the way ), and still utilized as the principal definition of " General Effect " today makes no mention at all of the level of audience reception to the show. So its all a mute point discussion, it seems to me, as for all intents and purposes, the audience is a non factor in any of the judged portion of the show. The " General Effect " caption is essentiialy determined by what " effect " the show in its totality as upon the GE judge himself or herself. That said, I do belive that an audience can have a cumulative positive effect on some Corps by Finals Night, as Corps that are appreciated can feed off the positivity they've felt for weeks on end, while I believe that its probably fair to assume that golf claps over a period of time will have somewhat of a negative ( or perhaps neutral)cumulative effect on some Corps that shows up by Finals Night. When we are only talking only a few tenths of a point that decides Champions in some cases, the cumulative effect of an audience over 3 days of Championships competition can have a few tenths of difference perhaps, even if the GE Judge pretends that noone else is in attendance but he or she.

Edited August 20, 2013 by BRASSO

[mingusmonk]

OIC, the audience sitting on their hands was really them mesmerized, in awe as it were, of BD's product. Got it. So the judges have it right after all, cool!

While I appear to have struck a nerve, I hope that I didn't offend. I was extrapolating on an example that you provided. If you re-read, you will see that I literally said that the judges don't have a handle on it. Nothing about right or wrong. You used the word "entertaining", but DCI seems to avoid embracing that terminology. If that is what DCI wants, then the sheets should just say it, right? "Positive Fan Response" seems a little clearer than "Audience Engagement." The more concrete the definition, the better.

Then again, by that definition, Crown would have capped out GE while they came out of the tunnel. Crazy crowd reaction. Fans at LOS were begging for it. And you are correct that they looooved them some SCV too. Had to feel good for those young men and women.

Oh, and to remain on topic, I will announce that I am once again not instructing drum corps.

And rumor-mongering about people's employment is not the classiest annual occurrence on DCP.

[Stu]

Is it really fair to claim that because a particular group of fans prefers a style of show, that's the only style of show that should be considered effective or be rewarded?

Well... if you want to have sell-out crowds at huge professional stadium venues paying high prices for those tickets, then you better reward them with what 'they' want. If you want to reward those who seek intellectual engagement, which is fine, then move DCI into a small art house type venue because that is the number of people who will attend.

[normy diploome]

Yes.

Unless the audience is to be a total non factor in the GE Sheets.

For a point of reference however, the judge that single handedly WROTE the definition of " General Effect" into the DCI first judging sheets in 1972 ( George Oliviero.. still judging Championship week today, by the way ), and still utilized as the principal definition of " General Effect " today makes no mention at all of the level of audience reception to the show. So its all a mute point discussion, it seems to me, as for all intents and purposes, the audience is a non factor in any of the judged portion of the show. The " General Effect " caption is essentiialy determined by what " effect " the show in its totality as upon the GE judge himself or herself. That said, I do belive that an audience can have a cumulative positive effect on some Corps by Finals Night, as Corps that are appreciated can feed of the positivity they've felt for weeks on end, while I believe that its probably fair to assume that golf claps over a period of time will have somewhat of a negative ( or neutral) effect on some Corps that shows up by Finals Night. When we are only talking a few tenths of a point that decides Champions in some cases, the cumulative effect of an audience over 3 days of Championships competition can have a few tenths of differeence perhaps, even if the GE Judge pretends that noone else is in attendance but he or she.

In 1972, George Oliviero was finishing his career marching in Beantown, in the shadows of college graduation, and like me, one of those upstarts in the middle of the discussions of the Hank Granas, Earl Joyces, Rick Maas, Jim Joneses, Gino Monterastelli, etc. One would hope that over 42 years there has been some maturation in experience and understanding. Otherwise you have discovered a constant in life that Einstein, whether on Revere beach or not, missed.

[drumguy50]

The vis team was "allowed" to change the technique entirely. They were given carte blanche for two years. I have no idea where you're coming from.

Watch the visual program. Any time the horns play anything of substance they are standing still (or sitting on bleachers) Although others in their competative neighborhood do that at times it not always.

[BRASSO]

In 1972, George Oliviero was finishing his career marching in Beantown, in the shadows of college graduation, and like me, one of those upstarts in the middle of the discussions of the Hank Granas, Earl Joyces, Rick Maas, Jim Joneses, Gino Monterastelli, etc. One would hope that over 42 years there has been some maturation in experience and understanding. Otherwise you have discovered a constant in life that Einstein, whether on Revere beach or not, missed.

George Oliviero wasn't finishing up his career marching Drum Corps however by '72. He had been out of marching Drum Corps since the early 60's ( Cambridge Caballeros ). In '72 ( the year you mentioned ) he was Coaching H.S.Frosh Baseball that year. He's been judging Corps since the late 60's however, when he was just in his early 20's. He was judging DCI Championship Finals when he was not yet 30 years old. I'm not sure we have anyone under the age of 45 judging on Finals Night these days.

Edited August 20, 2013 by BRASSO

[normy diploome]

George Oliviero wasn't finishing up his career marching Drum Corps however by '72. He had been out of marching Drum Corps since the early 60's ( Cambridge Caballeros ). In '72 ( the year you mentioned ) he was Coaching H.S.Frosh Baseball that year. He's been judging Corps since the late 60's however, when he was just in his early 20's. He was judging DCI Championship Finals when he was not yet 30 years old. I'm not sure we have anyone under the age of 45 judging on Finals Night these days.

You and I are not disagreeing at all.

I didn't have an exact date and didn't want to make it sound to the newbies as if George was 90.

But it leads to a further question for another thread. If someone has been judging a "youth" activity for 42 years, and the finals week panels include others around as long (the Czapinskis for example), should there be term limits on judging? Or is the reaction of the crowd so wonderously that we had a new champion, first time since 1996 also partially because we have the same old, same olds judging the same few corps???

Edited August 20, 2013 by normy diploome

[fsubone]

Watch the visual program. Any time the horns play anything of substance they are standing still (or sitting on bleachers) Although others in their competative neighborhood do that at times it not always.

What about in 2012?

[oldbandguy]

Watch the visual program. Any time the horns play anything of substance they are standing still (or sitting on bleachers) Although others in their competative neighborhood do that at times it not always.

So you're actually saying the Coats played nothing of substance while moving? Get your stopwatch out and take another look...and

compare to the others in the top 5.