drumguy50 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 So you're actually saying the Coats played nothing of substance while moving? Get your stopwatch out and take another look...and compare to the others in the top 5. Ok, check Bluecoats visual numbers for as many years as you like, over multiple staffs and designers and it seems to have the same result. If I am wrong with my suggestion, why does it consistently happen that they are lower in visual? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmurrey74 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Ok, check Bluecoats visual numbers for as many years as you like, over multiple staffs and designers and it seems to have the same result. If I am wrong with my suggestion, why does it consistently happen that they are lower in visual? Colorguard is one big reason their visual numbers have struggled. Moving away from the toe down technique can't hurt. Maybe a few times during the show is okay, but it looked terrible and seemed incredibly awkward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cadets98 Posted August 20, 2013 Popular Post Share Posted August 20, 2013 Watch the visual program. Any time the horns play anything of substance they are standing still (or sitting on bleachers) Although others in their competative neighborhood do that at times it not always. If I had recordings of what the brass first sounded like on the bleachers you would not think it was so easy. Crazy listening environment. Each kids bells pretty much right into the ears of the kid in front of them. So, each kid has to go on physical sensation alone since they really couldn't hear themselves well definitely not hear to their left and right. Kids were overplaying. Timing issues galore. One bleacher had no idea what the other was doing. Again, they couldn't possibly hear across. Tubas way in front so no using them for pitch. They weren't just sitting there. Lots of choreography, playing with one hand, leaning on the 45. And the melody in the trumpets, full of 6ths and 7ths in a legato style. Oh, and did you notice they were behind the 2nd hash. Al Lo, tried to go there as you did early season and we had to educate him as well. For the rest of the show, we were running. I say more visual demand than the teams in our area. We let Jon do his thing regarding the visual content. Regarding the music staff not allowing visual to do their thing, no such thing at all. We worked together with those guys and again let them do what they see as best. Believe me when I say that the music staff wants to see the corps succeed visually, obviously. With "caption bleed" high visual scores help brass and percussion scores and vice versa. There is no holding back of visual scores or teaching by the music guys. You are right that by and large Bluecoats play better than they move historically but trust that the full staff would love to see that trend change. I really think you are grasping for straws. Decent hypothesis. Just not correct. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Unfortunately the visual problems with Bluecoats appears to be more the music people not letting the visual people do thier job in terms of risk and development. Vandercoff is nothing special based on his Scouts drills and Coats this year but the holy trinity could be the visual staff and unless they are allowed more freedom it will not matter. They need a visual coordinator that knows the activity and will fight to let the visual do their job. I wonder if you have any idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Just so I understand what you're saying, you're implying that the music staff is not allowing visual designers to design in such a way that challenges the corps: that the music staff is sort of running around like bully dictators and not letting the vis designers to write difficult drill so as to not impede their musical performances? I wonder if you are someone who works for Bluecoats and has legit day-in/day-out understanding and knowledge of how they run their rehearsals and design meetings, of if you're an armchair "fan" sitting back and throwing out wild theories (I suspect the latter). FWIW I have zero knowledge of Bluecoats design meetings and rehearsals, though I do have some casual acquaintances associated with Bluecoats. I don't know if what you're speculating about is true or not, and I'm legitimately curious to hear if you're a staff speaking inside dope or just a conspiracy theorist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 If I had recordings of what the brass first sounded like on the bleachers you would not think it was so easy. Crazy listening environment. Each kids bells pretty much right into the ears of the kid in front of them. So, each kid has to go on physical sensation alone since they really couldn't hear themselves well definitely not hear to their left and right. Kids were overplaying. Timing issues galore. One bleacher had no idea what the other was doing. Again, they couldn't possibly hear across. Tubas way in front so no using them for pitch. They weren't just sitting there. Lots of choreography, playing with one hand, leaning on the 45. And the melody in the trumpets, full of 6ths and 7ths in a legato style. Oh, and did you notice they were behind the 2nd hash. Al Lo, tried to go there as you did early season and we had to educate him as well. For the rest of the show, we were running. I say more visual demand than the teams in our area. We let Jon do his thing regarding the visual content. Regarding the music staff not allowing visual to do their thing, no such thing at all. We worked together with those guys and again let them do what they see as best. Believe me when I say that the music staff wants to see the corps succeed visually, obviously. With "caption bleed" high visual scores help brass and percussion scores and vice versa. There is no holding back of visual scores or teaching by the music guys. You are right that by and large Bluecoats play better than they move historically but trust that the full staff would love to see that trend change. I really think you are grasping for straws. Decent hypothesis. Just not correct. Now THIS reply seems like it's coming from someone on the 'inside' of Bluecoats: speaking with truth, honesty, and giving a small bit of insight into daily issues involved with cleaning Bluecoats this summer. THIS seems legit, and THIS is interesting to me (as opposed to, say, armchair conspiracy theorists who speak that of which they don't really know of). Thanks for the insight, Cadets98: Bluecoats did a great job turning it on & cleaning down the stretch (which, IMO, goes further towards the 'it was really hard to clean and not-so-perfect early season' side of the argument as opposed to the 'the music staff doesn't let the vis staff do anything cool' argument) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumguy50 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 FWIW I have zero knowledge of Bluecoats design meetings and rehearsals, though I do have some casual acquaintances associated with Bluecoats. I don't know if what you're speculating about is true or not, and I'm legitimately curious to hear if you're a staff speaking inside dope or just a conspiracy theorist. Purely opinion as an observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Well... if you want to have sell-out crowds at huge professional stadium venues paying high prices for those tickets, then you better reward them with what 'they' want. If you want to reward those who seek intellectual engagement, which is fine, then move DCI into a small art house type venue because that is the number of people who will attend. I'm sorry, was Madison not at DCI finals? Was Phantom not in attendance? What about Bluecoats, or Vanguard? I think most of those shows would fit your definition of entertaining wouldn't they? Pretty sure the majority that you claim are entertained by such shows have more than enough to entice them to buy a ticket. What your arguing is that only those corps that you think are entertaining should win. At the end of the day, Blue Devils do what they do extremely well (let's be honest, that's who is in the crosshairs in this conversation). They do what they do better than Madison Scouts or Bluecoats, or Phantom do. That's why they win. It has nothing to do with their program choices. The fact that they don't blatantly pull on heart strings doesn't mean that they aren't entertaining, or "engaging". The fact is, it doesn't matter who wins. Someone will be upset about it. The most entertaining corps won't always be the best corps. They are not mutually exclusive. Someone brought up the comparison of Jersey Surf last year. Do we really think that they were more effective than groups in the top 12 just because they brought back some nostalgia and people loved it? Were the Scouts more effective because they did a tribute to their alumni (which was beautiful by the way). Effect has to mean more than just how much crowd reaction they get, or we'll end up with corps finding their way to success just by pandering to the crowd. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frachel Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Or, the judges struggle to award audience engagement to a show that comes across as pandering. I'll get fried for apparently being the first person to say this, but only thing missing in SCV this year was a bottle dance. Seriously though. I agree that the judges don't appear have a handle on the term Audience Engagement and what it means for their role. Can't say that I blame them. One man's audience engagement (as defined by many DCP members) is another man's cojoling. My 13 year old daughter has no idea what a 'bottle dance' is because she's a "new" fan. Are you saying shows have to be designed now to accommodate the people that have been following it for decades by making sure nothing 'old' is used again? I don't think it's the judge's place to determine if show's intent is to pander to it's audience or not. If so, they should be equally unrewarding when the goal seems to make the audience go "wtf" like BD recenty. Trooper's starburst isn't pandering? Licks of Conquest from Boston isn't pandering? I bet the crowd would go wild if the Cadets threw in a "G with an arrow" formation. I think fans going wild should be the goal of the sheets, not engagement by making-us-think and golfclaps. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmello99 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Also heard over the past week Don Hill leaving Phantom The Tomsas departing Colts Not sure where you got this info.....Seems like the Tomsas are embedded in the colts. I would be more worried about Sully talking to Hop again and jumping ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Or, the judges struggle to award audience engagement to a show that comes across as pandering. I'll get fried for apparently being the first person to say this, but only thing missing in SCV this year was a bottle dance. Seriously though. I agree that the judges don't appear have a handle on the term Audience Engagement and what it means for their role. Can't say that I blame them. One man's audience engagement (as defined by many DCP members) is another man's cojoling. While SCV had some nice moments (and certainly got butts out of seats) I have to admit it didn't grab me the way it did some others. It seemed pretty much just another Les Mis show. Yeah the hornline behind the backdrops / dance feature was a really nice moment but nothing else really stood out for me. But there's no denying it seemed to resonate with audiences. Edited August 21, 2013 by corpsband 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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