Two questions about G bugles.

[Tez]

one question I have been puzzled with is: Why were bugles made in the key of G originally?

They weren't.... Bb was the original key for bugles... G wasn't popular until the 20th century.

[Tez]

I always wonder why the key absolutely has to be G for the horns to sound "better"... or "brighter"... or "louder." Why can't someone design a Bb, or F bugle or something else that maybe has a larger bore to get a different sound?

[jjeffeory]

Another telling sign: I went to Michigan City this year with my buddy who is a drum guy and basically worships Cavaliers 2000 show. At Michigan City Cavies played the Niagara Falls opener as part of their encore. He turned to me with a funny look on his face and said, "why doesn't this sound right?" I said... "Bbs, not G bugles like you're used to listening to." He said, "so THAT's what you're always talking about? Now I understand." :)

That version of Niagara Falls ALSO sounded different because of the playing level of the members then versus now AND their different brass approach.

[jjeffeory]

You would have to have been there to understand. Imagine the current horn line doubled. But that's just volume. The signature sound is the beauty. Get some Sony MDR7506 and listen to...Blue Devil 82, 1984 Vanguard, 85 Madison....and so much more.

I miss the overtone series of the Gs. Otherwise both lines sound nice for different reason.

[nukeme70]

Here's some random thoughts leaking out of my brain in response to many of the arguments mentioned.

First thing - and I'm just making up numbers for sake of argument - way back when, lets say there were 10,000 kids marching, and you had 2500 that sounded great on G bugles. Today you have those 2500 kids playing Bb, and nobody else marching. Suddenly, everyone in DCI sounds great!

One of the things that drew me to drum corps, and kept me around for over 25 years, was the uniqueness of the instrument. Learning to master a horn that was similar, but fundamentally different from my bandmates in school was a matter of pride. Making the traditional instruments blend with each other had a unique challenge that went beyond that of marching band. It made me and the line better players, as we each had to listen and adjust to each other and know the restrictions and advantages of our instruments.

Good, or even adequate players should have no problem switching from one key to another, or different fingerings. How many times have we heard about the kid that plays clarinet but taught themself to play brass so they could march corps? As a tuba player, I've played gigs in the morning on an Eb horn, went to corps practice with my G contra, then did a performance later on a Bb tuba. Don't forget the tuba options in C and F. Watch big bands...a lot of time the sax and flute player are the same person. Don't some trumpet mutes change the key and tone and flow characteristics of the horn?

The economic issue is a non-argument as well. Kanstul bugles are cheaper than their corresponding Bb/F equivalents, they just don't make deals with hornlines. BITD, hornlines kept their equipment for years (I believe Star ended their tenure with the same horns they started with). I still have my contra that was built probably 1984 - had a lot of hard years before it became my parade horn. Still shiny (gotta love chrome), and still all in one piece. I might have missed it, but how many corps are using band instruments from local schools? I also wonder what happens to all the horns once the corps sell them off...I live in TX, that hotbed of marching, and have gone to many band competitions, and rarely do I see any schools using shoulder carried tubas, or matching lines of silver horns.

I guess to answer the OP's question - I think we all know that no top corps is going to switch to G for the season. But, I think we can all agree that nobody is going to listen to the Commandant's Own and think that their intonation is crap.

[alumniof]

Again, the best can adapt and not miss a step: the lower-achieving corps need any advantage they can get, and a horn that provides better intonation + zero transition for kids as far as learning notes & fingerings = a no brainer. If by "changing audio identity" the true result is "more horn lines are in tune," then I will TOTALLY take that identity change.

See....I'd rather accept minor intonation issues than the identifying sound. Do you want to plastic surgery your wife or kids so they are more perfect looking? Of course not because its their identity. That's what im saying. I'm so sick if concert pitch 24/7/365 that the change if key is welcome just for that reason alone. I don't listen to easy listening....but yeah....its in tune. Intonation at the expense of identity, power, and more is not a big enough reason. Once your identity is gone....what do you have? BOA and wgi minus wwodwinds.....for.now.

[jjeffeory]

I also think that in general DCI brass lines consistently, from 1st place to last, have better sound: better intonation, better balance, IMO a better characteristic sound. Lines like BD 93 would sound incredible on G's, any key, or even kazoos. But corps on the bottom end of the competitive tier are MUCH improved from 20 years or so ago. If we had to sacrifice extreme volume in exchange for higher quality intonation for everyone. IMO it's very myopic to write off an instrument or brass line for the sole reason of "it isn't insanely loud:" there are FAR more benefits with any key brass than G, and in the long run I think it's been a tremendous change for the better

I agree with quite a few things in here. I will say, we've lost something truly, truly special.

[CrunchyTenor]

There is no reason for a corps to go back to Gs.

Members, staff, none of them want to.

So glad to hear the they all have a spokesman in you.

:tongue:/>/>/>/>

Part of the "fun" of marching a G horn was learning different fingerings from the instruments you were used to playing in HS or college.

It's not the fingerings that were the challenge, unless everything you read was written in concert pitch and you had to transcribe. A "C" on a G bugle has the same fingerings as a "C" on a Bb trumpet. It's that way all the way through the scale. The challenge was training your ear to hear a different fundamental pitch. That "C" on the G bugle was a concert G, or a concert Bb on the trumpet. As stated in other posts, the G soprano bugle is pitched a minor third below the Bb trumpet. Tape down the third valve on your Bb trumpet and you essentially have a 2V G bugle.

As far as the baritones and contras went, IIRC, baritones, trombones and tubas are written in concert pitch, but the G bugle parts were written in G. Plus the odd habit of writing all the G bugle parts in Treble clef.

First thing - and I'm just making up numbers for sake of argument - way back when, lets say there were 10,000 kids marching, and you had 2500 that sounded great on G bugles. Today you have those 2500 kids playing Bb, and nobody else marching. Suddenly, everyone in DCI sounds great!

BINGO!

My biggest concern is that the tooling for these instruments will become lost. Apparently there were still new G bugles being made as of a few years ago though?

G bugles were always a special order item, whether you got them from Ludwig, Whaley-Royce, Smith, Olds, Getzen, King/American Heritage, or Kanstul. The fact is, you can still get them. Their price is lower than comparable Bb/F instruments. Write a check and they'll make them for you, because Kanstul and Dynasty (DEG) still have the tooling. Plus, they use the same tubing, bells, lead pipes and valves. Just more of the tubing.

Dynasty Bugles

Kanstul bugles

Garry in Vegas

Edited August 12, 2013 by CrunchyTenor

[DrumcorpsmademeaTuba]

In a nutshell, G hornlines have a degree of "out of control" that I always have issues justifying to myself, though I don't hate it. It's a different default to Bb, which is a bit more clear-cut and "under control," for lack of a better way to describe it. Essentially, speaking as a tuba player, it comes down to the difference between the BBb horns and the CC horns, and the Eb and F horns by extension. On the one hand, the lower group has an ability to fill up more of the room, or stadium in our case since this is drum corps we're talking about, but on the other hand, a lot of clarity is lost as you go lower, and lips are just plain less agile the lower they go when buzzing a note. It has lots of effects on that signature sound we like to hook on, and less appreciable effects on volume, but in the end, it can create quite a different product. Personally, I vouch for the Bb sound just because I find it to be a lot more flexible than the G sound, but obviously the most important factor is ensemble quality.

I do always wonder though with the any key scenario how a C/G set-up, the same as the modern set-up but up a step, would sound, especially since the enigmatic Mellophones would be back up in G and coupled with an equally higher hornline around them. :music:/> It's been food for thought some days when I'm especially bored.

[Gary Matczak]

They weren't.... Bb was the original key for bugles... G wasn't popular until the 20th century.

let me rephrase,.............why were bugles manufactured in G and made the official key for drum corps?,.........whenever it happened,........