Rank and Rate...managing numbers...Kind of?

[GUARDLING]

While I cannot stand bottom line ties, and think judges should avoid sub-caption ties unless there's a really good reason, I have absolutely no problem with overall ties. If that's how the math adds up, so be it. To me there's nothing worse than a forced tie-breaker.

Just considering the three times we've had ties at the top, who was harmed by having co-champions?

it is what it is BUT as you asked what harm....none for sure , does it feel the same, well some might say yes and I believe most would say no. As a matter a fact I do know it doesnt feel the same. There' just something about finally reaching that goal or knowing you actually beat the best of the best....jmo

[Pete Freedman]

While I cannot stand bottom line ties, and think judges should avoid sub-caption ties unless there's a really good reason, I have absolutely no problem with overall ties. If that's how the math adds up, so be it. To me there's nothing worse than a forced tie-breaker.

Just considering the three times we've had ties at the top, who was harmed by having co-champions?

Exactly, but then I didn't know anyone was bothered by bottom line ties either. ("Bottom line" means at the caption level, correct? Combining Content and Achievement?)

[Jeff Ream]

If one caption is killing you, it'll show in the ordinals as well. The only way that's not the case is if that caption is killing everyone else as well. Assuming you're referring to Crown's percussion score, that did affect the ordinals as they were 6th in percussion and still won.

well, maybe not.

on prelims, I took out the double Ge judges ordinals and went with over all GE.

Finals, Crown goes like this:

Ge visual 2

Ge Music1

Vis Prof 2

VA 1

Guard 2

Brass 1

MA 1

Perc 6

total 16.

BD

Ge V1

Ge Music3

VP 1

VA 2

Guard 1

Brass 3

MA 3

Perc 2

total.......16.

So Crown's spread in brass and GE music with numbers, which made up for their issues with percussion and won the show lands them in a tie.

and....can you image the crowd reaction ( and on here) if it's a tie?

:ph34r:/>

[HornTeacher]

Being a relative newby to DCP (although not to competition, whether as a combined 36-year participant and director of participating groups in music competitions), I would ask that some semblance of understanding be kindly granted. Please.

While extending a current scoring system from ascertaining (between 2 or more groups) tenths of points between groups to hundredths might seem to, on the surface, alleviate the ever-present "tie," how long will it be before we are seeking "thousandth of a point" differentiation? I won't go into where we go from there, once one caption has a final result of 19.99 vs. 19.98. If a judge has a problem with distinguishing a single point difference (or tenth of a point difference) between groups, how is he (or she) EVER going to explain, with any answer acceptable to either corps caption instructors OR the informed public-at-large exactly how the difference between those two scores (19.99 vs. 19.98) was arrived at? As soon as we encounter a tie between twin 19.99's, this will be the next resulting situation.

When all is said and done what I think we are all being faced with, and subsequently discussing, is the problem inherent when two or more people attempt to place a "score" on an artistic endeavor. Maybe better said would be this: ask two (or more) "informed" Art critics to score the "Mona Lisa."

1) And when the result ends up being, say, 99 to 98, ask each to distinguish the difference. Ok...so they amend their critique and come forth with a result of 99 to 98.9..

2) And when we then ask "Where's the .1 difference?" They then scratch their heads and reply "Ok...99 to 98.99."

3) Going on from here would be nothing more than a fruitless and unanswerable argument.

What we are talking about is nothing solely common to Drum Corps. It exists in High School Band competitions. It exists in selecting HS students for All-State consideration (and please, don't get me started on that. Suffice to say, selecting between indentical scores of Student A performing the Haydn Trumpet Concerto in Eb in front of judge C, and student B performing the Hummel Trumpet Concerto in Eb in front of judge D...both being 2 months and 450 miles apart, is a situation beyond mere mortal man. Or at least this simple mind.

[Jeff Ream]

well, maybe not.

on prelims, I took out the double Ge judges ordinals and went with over all GE.

Finals, Crown goes like this:

Ge visual 2

Ge Music1

Vis Prof 2

VA 1

Guard 2

Brass 1

MA 1

Perc 6

total 16.

BD

Ge V1

Ge Music3

VP 1

VA 2

Guard 1

Brass 3

MA 3

Perc 2

total.......16.

So Crown's spread in brass and GE music with numbers, which made up for their issues with percussion and won the show lands them in a tie.

and....can you image the crowd reaction ( and on here) if it's a tie?

:ph34r:/>/>

and if you add in all 4 ge sheets, it's Crown by 1. why? because Bell tied BD and Cadets in the performer sub box

[Jeff Ream]

Exactly, but then I didn't know anyone was bothered by bottom line ties either. ("Bottom line" means at the caption level, correct? Combining Content and Achievement?)

correct

[Kamarag]

Exactly, but then I didn't know anyone was bothered by bottom line ties either. ("Bottom line" means at the caption level, correct? Combining Content and Achievement?)

You don't get out much then. Corps members, staff, admin and other judges HATE bottom line ties. And tons of fans do too. Seriously. I think it's really crappy judging. You're paid to make a decision. Make one.

[Pete Freedman]

Being a relative newby to DCP (although not to competition, whether as a combined 36-year participant and director of participating groups in music competitions), I would ask that some semblance of understanding be kindly granted. Please.

While extending a current scoring system from ascertaining (between 2 or more groups) tenths of points between groups to hundredths might seem to, on the surface, alleviate the ever-present "tie," how long will it be before we are seeking "thousandth of a point" differentiation? I won't go into where we go from there, once one caption has a final result of 19.99 vs. 19.98. If a judge has a problem with distinguishing a single point difference (or tenth of a point difference) between groups, how is he (or she) EVER going to explain, with any answer acceptable to either corps caption instructors OR the informed public-at-large exactly how the difference between those two scores (19.99 vs. 19.98) was arrived at? As soon as we encounter a tie between twin 19.99's, this will be the next resulting situation.

When all is said and done what I think we are all being faced with, and subsequently discussing, is the problem inherent when two or more people attempt to place a "score" on an artistic endeavor. Maybe better said would be this: ask two (or more) "informed" Art critics to score the "Mona Lisa."

1) And when the result ends up being, say, 99 to 98, ask each to distinguish the difference. Ok...so they amend their critique and come forth with a result of 99 to 98.9..

2) And when we then ask "Where's the .1 difference?" They then scratch their heads and reply "Ok...99 to 98.99."

3) Going on from here would be nothing more than a fruitless and unanswerable argument.

I would say it just needs to be granular enough to avoid ties in a show with DCI corps. Given that they are spread over a large range of performance levels to start with, I'd say the tenth modded to 100th should be sufficient.

What we are talking about is nothing solely common to Drum Corps. It exists in High School Band competitions. It exists in selecting HS students for All-State consideration (and please, don't get me started on that. Suffice to say, selecting between indentical scores of Student A performing the Haydn Trumpet Concerto in Eb in front of judge C, and student B performing the Hummel Trumpet Concerto in Eb in front of judge D...both being 2 months and 450 miles apart, is a situation beyond mere mortal man. Or at least this simple mind.

This is really fascinating. And this isn't just for fun, it's for keeps; the student's future depends on an impossible accuracy. If we've seen anything on this thread (and others like it) it's that it's hard to compare even units performing consecutively for the same judge, let alone different judges months and miles apart.

It does seem like there should be a performing arts adjudication association with representatives from all these disparate fields that can work together on these issues. Is there any such organization?

[HornTeacher]

This is really fascinating. And this isn't just for fun, it's for keeps; the student's future depends on an impossible accuracy. If we've seen anything on this thread (and others like it) it's that it's hard to compare even units performing consecutively for the same judge, let alone different judges months and miles apart.

It does seem like there should be a performing arts adjudication association with representatives from all these disparate fields that can work together on these issues. Is there any such organization?

Thank you, Pete, for taking my diatribe seriously. As a newby, it DOES mean a lot. Now, to answer your question: No, I do not believe that one exists. All I know is that a "selection panel" sits down with all of the appropriate judge's sheets during the summer, peruses the multitude of dissimilar sheets resulting from cross-state festivals, and renders a final student placement. I know I'm giving away my location here, but what the ####...I'm about to retire, anyway. But again, thank you for the respect inherent in your comment.

[Jeff Ream]

I would say it just needs to be granular enough to avoid ties in a show with DCI corps. Given that they are spread over a large range of performance levels to start with, I'd say the tenth modded to 100th should be sufficient.

This is really fascinating. And this isn't just for fun, it's for keeps; the student's future depends on an impossible accuracy. If we've seen anything on this thread (and others like it) it's that it's hard to compare even units performing consecutively for the same judge, let alone different judges months and miles apart.

It does seem like there should be a performing arts adjudication association with representatives from all these disparate fields that can work together on these issues. Is there any such organization?

I don;'t think you'd be able to get people to agree enough to agree on the topic