Can someone explain the G Bugles?

[Stu]

Okay, so my attempt at building a bridge with a photo I thought you would appreciate has now had bombs put around it....so you want to do battle. Typical hole. First, you don't want to understand me correctly - you want to argue. Understanding is not your point, fighting is. First, I don't have an evangelical corps. Second, I said I present topics. Third, I said nothing of uniforms that they would wear. Fourth, I said nothing about cleavage. Fifth, I said nothing about males. Sixth I said nothing about gluteus maximus. Seventh, I never said anything about hymns. Eighth, I never said anything about Almighty. Ninth, I never said anything about the Great Commission. Tenth, you just proved my point that the issue is in the mind of the reader and the observer - not the stimulus. What do you think of when I say BS? Do you believe in your own BS? What words you thinking of? I use the initials BS for belief system and I'm sure that's not what you thought. Again, proving my point.

No; I am not trying to be a jerk; and take a chill pill. I am just attempting, in a jokingly manner, to square this with all of your presentations within 'your' Christian based Evangelical drum corps thread. To get this G bugle thread back on track, why not post the photo over in 'your' Evangelical thread and we can discuss it within that context and not hijack this thread.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Stu

[alumniof]

No; I am not trying to be a jerk; and take a chill pill. I am just attempting, in a jokingly manner, to square this with all of your presentations within 'your' Christian based Evangelical drum corps thread. To get this G bugle thread, why not post the photo over in 'your' Evangelical thread and we can discuss it within that context and not hijack this thread.

Then go there to do it like a normal human being. Do you show up at your wife's work to discuss your personal issues? And hole, Fred, in THIS thread, mentioned University of Alabama's majorettes - thus the pic. You brought in the other thread. Weasel.

Edited August 14, 2013 by alumniof

[Stu]

Recruiting? Is there really a recruiting problem?

Yes there was, and to some extent still is, a recruiting problem within DCI as organizations like BOA grew. In the '70s and '80s most high school band programs were nowhere near the highly polished and qualitative programs they are today; the high schools back then did not charge thousands of dollars in dues each year to participate in high school marching band (like many BOA schools do today). So, during that time period DCI recruitment was relatively easy. Then in the '90s and on into the New Millennium came the rise of Avon, Carmel, L.D. Bell, Broken Arrow, Plymouth-Canton, Marcus, Tarpon Springs, and a plethora of other very high quality programs. This really encroached into the number of youth participating in DCI and thus the Bb/F era was born, in part, to help keep recruitment up.

[funkjazzaxe]

I'd argue that by making corps into Bb brass bands, appeal goes down. As stated, there are already quality band programs out there. G brass, and unique instrumentation, set drum corps and DCI apart and made it unique. Worked to recruit me, anyway. Why water your product down to be more like the other guys (high school/BOA/etc) when those guys look to your product as the penultimate- and they can't get that product (bugles- it is (was) a drum & bugle corps, right?) anywhere else. The more DCI becomes BOA, the less desire to be a part of it I would think- especially if you are already in a top BOA band. What's the difference, anymore? Its all trumpets & tubas now.

[Stu]

Then go there to do it like a normal human being. Do you show up at your wife's work to discuss your personal issues? And hole, Fred, in THIS thread, mentioned University of Alabama's majorettes - thus the pic. You brought in the other thread. Weasel.

Ok; but this is not 'work' and we are not discussing 'personal issues' (unless you call the thread, which you started, on a Christian Evangelical Corps a 'personal issue' and you brought that forth for discussion not us). DCP is a mere discussion board and you are a mere poster on a public discussion board just like me and all others who engage on DCP. Again, I was just attempting to square your postings in this thread with another thread (which you created); nothing more. Now, back to the bugles...

[MikeD]

I'd argue that by making corps into Bb brass bands, appeal goes down. As stated, there are already quality band programs out there. G brass, and unique instrumentation, set drum corps and DCI apart and made it unique. Worked to recruit me, anyway. Why water your product down to be more like the other guys (high school/BOA/etc) when those guys look to your product as the penultimate- and they can't get that product (bugles- it is (was) a drum & bugle corps, right?) anywhere else. The more DCI becomes BOA, the less desire to be a part of it I would think- especially if you are already in a top BOA band. What's the difference, anymore? Its all trumpets & tubas now.

By that logic, why would a HS band member want to try out for their local Region or all-state bands? They play the same instruments in those that they do in band class. Or why would a person choose to attend Interlochen or another summer music camp? DCI wants to be the epitome of marching/music and attract the true marching/music junkies to participate. Aligning the instruments helps that effort, IMO.

[Stu]

By that logic, why would a HS band member want to try out for their local Region or all-state bands? They play the same instruments in those that they do in band class. Or why would a person choose to attend Interlochen or another summer music camp? DCI wants to be the epitome of marching/music and attract the true marching/music junkies to participate. Aligning the instruments helps that effort, IMO.

But has it actually helped with youth involvement within DCI? Has youth involvement increased or decreased in the whole of DCI? Local, regional, and State bands do not cost the participants thousands and thousands of dollars to participate. Very few youth each summer actually have, and now attend, Interlochen because of that type of high cost. Moreover, many High Schools now have very high dues to participate in BOA type programs and they cannot justify paying those high dues for band 'and' drum corps. So, has the switch to Bb/F really been the huge benefit in which it was intended?

[funkjazzaxe]

Good arguement and points. I guess we all just speak from personal perspective... mine is that I held drum corps as something seperate and much more cool than school marching band. Of course the execution was better (drum corps), but the very nature of the unique instrumentation and sound is what made it cool and appealing to me. I always thought marching band was, well, lame (and I was in a good program) and drum corps was much cooler. The instrumentation was a very tangible difference, the fact we weren't playing "tubas and trumpets", but rather contras and sopranos. It just made it all so much more appealing. Plus the sound of a DCI line was different that a Bb band line. G bugles were high octane axes, purpose built for the sport of drum corps. If it were Bb band... wouldn't have been interested. I bet if someone traveled back to the 90's and went up to Blue Devils contra line and said "hey guys, cool tubas!" they'd have beat them senseless with their contras! Calling bugles trumpets/tubas/etc used to be total blasphamy! Of course we all played Bb instruments in our non-corps gigs (hell, I played woodwind and now make a living as a professional guitarist!) but in no way/shape/form would any of us wanted Bb band instruments in the horn line.

[Phirefenix]

Without addressing the why of the switch, which has been discussed ad nauseum. (Resale value, easier education, etc...)

I always felt a little more punch from G bugle lines. King/Kanstul horns always had a more open throated bell, and played pretty darkly in competent hands. There was nothing that prevented G bugles from being perfectly capable horns in the hands of a person willing to figure them out. My favorite hornline of all time remains Star of Indiana 1992, and they played on 2 valve kings from the 80's. Such a magnificently rich, dark, warm sound. Bugles were also designed for the express purpose of outdoor venues. They were very well suited then to the task of drum and bugle corps. Dynasty, and other G bugle manufacturers had a brighter tone to me, and I never really cared for them at all. However they were still capable of sounding great. Especially when manned by the Phantom Regiment. Bb horns are getting better since the switch, with larger bores, and subtle tweaks to the bells, etc. I still haven't found a moment where I felt that pressure in my chest from a G hornline opening up to 11, but I think it'll come again.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Phirefenix

[fsubone]

Back to the actual topic at hand. Seriously, was it the actual instruments being played, or the manner of instruction and playing? I can push the same amount of air through a G baritone as I can through a Bb one, and not get a difference on a decibel reader. (Yes, there's an app for that) Someone on a different thread pulled up the stats, and a Kanstul G soprano has the exact same bore and sized bell as a Bb trumpet. So I'm going to guess it's not so much the horns, as the manner of instruction and players that was around back then. Or the recordings. Lot of advances in recording technology since 1972. I still think Crown this year could go toe-to-toe with any line from the past that people said were the loudest ever, and probably beat them on quality. Same with BD from the last few years. I went back through the last few days and listened to every championship show, and there were some bad, bad sounds coming out of hornlines through the 70s and 80s. Quality of sound did seem to improve through the 90s to what we have today. Star had some amazing lines in the early 90s, not strange then that the same staff helped make Crown what they are today.