corpsband Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) you keep typing this but it isn't accurate Drum corps have ALL the attributes of sport. Noun An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others. well actually i keep saying that analogies between pro sports and drum corps always fail. (and in this thread i keep saying that "Marching Music's Major League" is just a marketing slogan -- not any sort of accurate description) drum corps participants are certainly athletes. but im not sure that it's really a sport. there's no objective scoring (ball in basket, ball through goal posts, etc...). it's an entirely subjective assessment. so...imo not really a sport at all. but ill agree it has many of the attributes of sports. Edited August 20, 2013 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) The fault (if there's fault to be assigned at all) lies with the lower tier corps who failed to engender the performer's desire to remain. [/size] .. the reason the lower Corps can't get competitive traction ( 98% of them never do )is not because they failed to " engender the current performer's desire to remain ",so much as it is that the lower tier Corps is rarely ever to be in a position to be attractive to the current veteran marchers because for years and years, the top tier Corps have used the lower tier Corps as essentially a feeder system for themselves. So naturally, we have such little placement movement from year to year as its pretty much understood that approx 35 Corps each year, many of who have been in existence for decades, are training grounds for the top tier World Class Corps. 10 of the current 12 World Class Division Corps have been in the Top 12 for years. Thats not going to change without some level of transfer policies, fees, put in place, as these Corps just drain the experienced, veteran talent from the lower Tier Corps each and every off season. As such, the lower Tier Corps are back to Square One in replacing the MM's they trained for the Elites, and so they bring in the raw talent, and the cycle continues as it has for years and years. Every 3 decades or so a Corps breaks through this absurd system ( Star, Crown, and Star quit the system lets not forget ) so its really only been 1 Corps that has come up thru this system to win a Title the last 3 decades. And even they did so primarily by utilizing the talent from the lower tier Corps themselves, once they made it into the Top 12. Nobody really believes that the Top 10 or so Corps could remain where they are year after year without draining the lower Tier Corps talent each and every season. No other amateur or pro sports organizations permit this unfettered flow of talent like this to the few teams at the top like DCI Drum Corps does. Its no wonder the top tier Corps Directors, with most of the power and influence in DCI, positively love this systen, and want no transfer policies of any sort put in place. Its kept them competitively where they are for decades, kept the other lower tier Corps at bay, and kept their winning revenues coming in. As a result, there is no other youth competitive organization in the world that I 'm aware of that has such little placement movements from year to year, except for an occasional rare outlier Corps and its year. All of the other youth organizations have sensible and reasonable transfer polivies in place. They do so to help their organizations have organizational stability, competitive fairness, growth of teams, growth of their sport, more parity, more competive excitement, and growth of the fanbase. Such policies work. Nobody complains. No parents are complaining. No athletes feel its unfair to be under some level of transfer restraints. They all pay to participate. They don't get to choose their teams however. Even Little League drafts kids who pay to participate, and they're made to stay put on teams that LL Baseball chooses for them... because LL, and Pop Warner, and Bantom Youth Hockey, and Amateur Soccer Organizations, and ALL the others say so, thats why. The sytem works for them,.. as intended. They are all growing teams in their sports, they have great competition, and teams move up all the time to win. Parents and their children all all ok with such a system of transfer policies as a natural ( and neccessary ) part of the gig. How are we doing since the 70's compared with all the other youth competitive youth endeavors that have sensible and reasonable transfer policies in place ? Are we growing Corps ? Do we have more, or less participants in DCI mermbership Corps today in 2013 or was there more marchers that did DCI Drum Corps in 1975 ? How much fair competition for titles have we really had the last 35 years compared with ( for example ) Pop Warner National Titles, or Bantam Youth Hockey National Titles ? Do any of the other youth sports have 3 national teams that have won over 80% Of all the titles the last 35 years ? Why do these youth sports the last 35 years have had so many different national titlists ? Of the more than 2 dozen WC Division Corps that in 2014 will compete for the national title, how many do you believe here in August have any realistic shot at all under the current system that has no transfer policies in place at all ? Half of them ? More than half of them ? or just 3 or 4 ? How do you think all the other youth competitive organizations would look upon DCI regarding its decisiion to have no policies at all regarding membership transfers between its teams ? Do you think they'd want to copy us ? Do you think they'd all think that having no transfer policies in place is good for the grow of membership, growth of the activity, good for competition, and is sound policy for the overall stability of the activity itself ? Edited August 20, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 The problem that needs fixing is NOT that top corps are stealing kids. The problem is that kids audition for those corps and don't march elsewhere. The transfer fees do nothing to address the problem. There are PLENTY of kids auditioning -- they just want to march in their chosen corps and not elsewhere. Fix THAT and you're actually making a worthwhile change. Since many have equated drum corps to educational I will use that as the analogy. Let's say you desire to get a math degree at a top tier institution known for math; however after applying to those institutions they inform you that they will not allow you in because your ACT/SAT scores are too low; so you look elsewhere to further you education in hopes of possibly entering a top tier math institute after your credentials are stellar. However, when you do look around at other institutions, even the local community college is charging the same outrageous tuition as MIT, Harvard, and Yale. In that situation, would you go to the community college, or would you 'just work harder on your own' for a year to increase your ACT/SAT scores so-as to get into a top tier institute? Therein is the real issue to resolve concerning youth who get cut from WC auditions and not going to an OC corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) .. the reason the lower Corps can't get competitive traction ( 98% of them never do )is not because they failed to " engender the current performer's desire to remain ",so much as it is that the lower tier Corps is rarely ever to be in a position to be attractive to the current veteran marchers because for years and years, the top tier Corps have used the lower tier Corps as essentially a feeder system for themselves. So naturally, we have such little movement from yers to yeaar as its pretty much understood that approx 35 Corps each year, many of who have been in existence for decades, are training grounds for the top tier World Class Corps. 10 of the 12 World Class Division Corps have been in the Top 12 for years. Thats not going to change without some level of transwfer policies, fees in place, as these Corps just drain the experienced, veteran talent from the lower Tier Corps each and every off season. As such, the lower Tier Corps are back to Square One in replacing the MM's they trained for the Elites, and so they bring in the raw talent, and the cycle continues as it has for years and years. No. Lower corps have the participant first. For an ENTIRE SEASON. The kids wears the uniform, sings the corps songs, rides the buses, eats, sleeps and breathes that corps. I can't imagine a BETTER situation for the lower tier corps to KEEP that kid. And yet that kid chooses to leave ... Why Brasso? Why? The rest of your post is just a circular argument. You can't prove that the upper tiers corps have created a feeder system by stating that the upper tier corps have created a feeder system. Sorry you'll need to do better. I stated my explanation for why kids leave the lower tier corps for higher tier corps. What's yours? Edited August 20, 2013 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Since many have equated drum corps to educational I will use that as the analogy. Let's say you desire to get a math degree at a top tier institution known for math; however after applying to those institutions they inform you that they will not allow you in because your ACT/SAT scores are too low; so you look elsewhere to further you education in hopes of possibly entering a top tier math institute after your credentials are stellar. However, when you do look around at other institutions, even the local community college is charging the same outrageous tuition as MIT, Harvard, and Yale. In that situation, would you go to the community college, or would you 'just work harder on your own' for a year to increase your ACT/SAT scores so-as to get into a top tier institute? Therein is the real issue to resolve concerning youth who get cut from WC auditions and not going to an OC corps. Hate analogies but this seems to hold up ok. Unfortunately it doesn't provide any solutions to the problem at hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Hate analogies but this seems to hold up ok. Unfortunately it doesn't provide any solutions to the problem at hand. There are two ways I can see to fix the issue; the first is very difficult to get accomplished, and the second would be flat impossible to rectify. 1) Make sure that every OC corps is better than most high school band programs while cutting the touring time, touring travel, and other items which cause OC to have the same level of expenditures as the WC so the dues/tuition cost to be a part of an OC corps is way lower than being a part of a WC corps; or.... 2) Change the minds of the majority of youth in our culture today who desire instant gratification by only being a part of the best of the best immediately, and if that does not happen they would rather stay home to engage in computer gaming than go to something they consider beneath them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 There are two ways I can see to fix the issue; the first is very difficult to get accomplished, and the second would be flat impossible to rectify. 1) Make sure that every OC corps is better than most high school band programs while cutting the touring time, touring travel, and other items which cause OC to have the same level of expenditures as the WC so the dues/tuition cost to be a part of an OC corps is way lower than being a part of a WC corps; or.... 2) Change the minds of the majority of youth in our culture today who desire instant gratification by only being a part of the best of the best immediately, and if that does not happen they would rather stay home to engage in computer gaming than go to something they consider beneath them. I would loved to see how #2 gets accomplished.....lol Ive seen the tear down of some corps and the entitlement of MANY youth today ( not all )Once the Barn door is open its very hard to round up the farm animals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) No. Lower corps have the participant first. For an ENTIRE SEASON. The kids wears the uniform, sings the corps songs, rides the buses, eats, sleeps and breathes that corps. I can't imagine a BETTER situation for the lower tier corps to KEEP that kid. And yet that kid chooses to leave ... Why Brasso? Why? ? Well for one reason, the marcher is marching under a system thats been in place before he or she was in diapers. Its a system where its culture for decades permits that you march in that Corps and then if you are good enough you move on to the next Corps up the totem pole. Its systemic. Its tradition. The marcher in some cases joined the Corps to get the experience. The culture is understood by its participants. Its the minor leagues he or she is in in the begionning. The difference however is that these minor league teams under DCI competitive rules that lose their best players each and every year are asked to then go out and compete with the Majors League teams that took their best players. What a screwy system that perpetuates a culture of essentially the same World Class Corps at the top, the same Corps in the middle, and the same corps at the bottom. Under such sa screwy system its no surprise that so many Corps eventually fold under such a system. Unbiased, objective viewers would look at such a system as outsiders and scratch their heads at why DCI Drum Corps does not believe it needs sensible and reasonable transfer policies in place between its competitive teams. Nor absent such reasonable and sound policies, how we somehow believe we are poised for future Corps growth, Membership growth across the activity, better, stronger, fairer competition among the World Class Corps in the future. Who are we kidding here ? We're all reasonably intelligent here. We can understand why ALL the other youth competitive sports team organizations world wide have adopted sensible and reasonable transfer policies in place between its membership teams. We are capable of understanding WHY they ALL do so. Its not lost on us. We don't have to stick our heads in the sand here and pretend that the system we have in place now is exclusively the lower tier Corps fault for losing marchers, in some cases for decades, to the Top 10 Corps. Wow, talk about " blaming the victim " here. Now having said all this, I can certainly understand why fans and alums of the Top 10 Corps don't want any change here, and absolutely love this particular tradition thats gone on for too long and want it to go on for the next millenium. Edited August 20, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Not because they choose to audition. It would be because they are actually marching with them. There is a competitive and financial advantage gained from being able to replenish your ranks with veterans from other corps. I personally know people who ended up marching with top corps, such as Cadets, Cavaliers, etc, who would not have been able to get in there without the seasoning they received at another corps. Those corps received a benefit from the other corps, perhaps while they were arguing that those lower corps should get less money and even be bumped from performing at the same show with them. I'd like to see them give something back for effectively being a feeder corps. I admire the cleverness and the spirit of your original proposal, and this defense is valid as well. However, when you tinker with things from the 10,000 foot view it can mess things up at the 100 foot view. If this plan resulted in fewer members joining lower corps out of fear of not being able to get out, that would be a disaster for the activity. You'd have to keep the fee low, which limits the value to the lower corps. Maybe if David Gibbs, etc. just had to give a speech thanking the lower corps (plural) for the excellent training their members received in the lower ranks, it would at least remind them on a yearly basis that they wouldn't be there without the lower corps. Then maybe their appearance fess wouldn't be at risk, and there wouldn't be shows that exclude them. Ah, pipe dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 BTW, you'll notice that "housing costs" don't show up identified as such in any 990. Most local shows don't "charge" for housing. The local host pays for housing out of the proceeds of the show. DCI doesn't charge a "housing fee" in their contract. At regional shows, housing is arranged for by DCI and paid for by DCI out of the proceeds of the show. Corps directors don't arrange housing at shows and they don't pay for housing at shows unless they stay over before or after a show, or unless they arrange a layover between shows. That rarely happens because corps are either at a location at which they can stay a couple of days longer, or they're on their way to a show site where they can stay a few days prior to the show. Those cost negotiations are usually handled between the corps and the show host. Thanks for this. I always wondered how this worked. So the members can sleep soundly on those gym floors knowing the corps didn't pay anything for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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