I KNEW this was coming.

[BRASSO]

Who wouldn't say that guard rifles are symbolic weapons of war?

Me.

Rifles are inanimate objects that can be any number of things ...... " a principal tool for the securing of food by Native American tribes today in Alaska".... " arifacts used for historical preservation in museums "..... " collectors items purchased as an investment for financial gain "..... " tool for the sport of target practice, skeet shooting, etc "..... " weapons of war " ( decreased useage here however as other weapons replace and take the forefront ).... " a tool used in the sport of hunting ".... " tool utilized in Olympic Sport Training and Competition"...... weapon used in law enforcement ".... ",... " item utilized for Honor and Salute Ceremonies at Funerals".... a firearm used for family and personal protection ".... and so forth. As a matter of fact, " the rifle " is utilized much less frequently world wide these days as a " weapon of war" as for the other reasons I've just mentioned here. This is another reason why this single minded caricature of " the rifle " by someone at the Cadets as "a weapon of war " is so just so silly.

Edited August 22, 2013 by BRASSO

[Pete Freedman]

Who wouldn't say that guard rifles are symbolic weapons of war?

Me.

Rifles are inanimate objects that can be any number of things ...... " a principal tool for the securing of food by Native American tribes today in Alaska".... " arifacts used for historical preservation in museums "..... " collectors items purchased as an investment for financial gain "..... " tool for the sport of target practice, skeet shooting, etc "..... " weapons of war " ( decreased useage here however as other weapons replace and take the forefront ).... " a tool used in the sport of hunting ".... " tool utilized in Olympic Sport Training and Competition"...... weapon used in law enforcement ".... ",... " item utilized for Honor and Salute Ceremonies at Funerals".... a firearm used for family and personal protection ".... and so forth. As a matter of fact, " the rifle " is utilized much less frequently world wide these days as a " weapon of war" as for the other reasons I've just mentioned here. This is another reason why this single minded caricature of " the rifle " by someone at the Cadets as "a weapon of war " is so just so silly.

Post of the decade.

[GUARDLING]

not sure if this has been said ( not going back to read all this ) BUT has anyone even considered that with everything under the YEA umbrella , CAdets, Cadets 2, Urban arts, all those HS from many different Places and rules, that there might be some pressure from other places that can jeopardize everything there. Now I dont know if that's the case and maybe not at all BUT can't it possibibly be a reason? With all that happens in this country as far as violence, senseless violence ,couldnt it be a possibility?

I would love to know if Newtown HS guards in CT. Might have a problem after what's happend there. Maybe , maybe not...could it be a possibility?

With all the experience here in all walks of life, people who know every statistic, financials,in's and outs of the activity , hasn't anyone thought this maybe is a possibility? Granted it may be a HOPPY way of wanting change , and ? So? if that's all it is no matter what he says , so what!

If it's something more and he's not saying ( which he has every right not to say )then it could be something we may ( or may not ) see more of in the future.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THE TRADIONAL EQUIPMENT GO , but, if a corps chooses to use another form of the equipment it should be just as leagal in DCI. Also , I have seen a 4th grader suspended from school for bringing onto property a neon blue water pistol..Is that right? everyone can have their own judgement, is it the world we live in NOW..ABSOLUTELY!!!! and sadly enough , there's nothing funny about that............JMO

[Michael Boo]

Oh, but they are! Remember Panama 1989/90? It's how we got Noriega to surrender.

I could get in so much trouble for offering titles of certain drum corps musical selections that should have been played through the speakers.

[lindap]

This is such a great story, and important in this thread IMO because it illustrates the importance of the history of these rifles in this activity. The rifle has (I think) generally been the advanced piece of guard equipment, so there's perhaps a whole history of people "making it to the rifle line." Is that right? Add to that a certain macho heft of the thing, and, of course, the military connotations add a macho dimension as well. At that time in drum corps the boys played musical instruments, but the girls carried the guns!

Thank you. The rifle line was elite. They were in the front, sabres were with the honour guard, flags were connecting elbows with horn lines or back field back in the day. In the early days boys had rifles in drum corps and spinning was at a minimum. In later years when girls spun rifle, they wanted less weight to spin more. We took off the steel and left the strap to spin to the beat of the drums. In the early 1980's we'd often see guards with boys and girls except for all girl drum corps winter guards. The 1972 Olympics was the deciding factor to not carry rifles in our corps.

[Jeff Ream]

ah, another dull day on DCP.

It's Hop being Hop. he did this 12 years ago. didn't work out too well then either

[charlie1223]

Who wouldn't say that guard rifles are symbolic weapons of war?

Me.

Rifles are inanimate objects that can be any number of things ...... " a principal tool for the securing of food by Native American tribes today in Alaska".... " arifacts used for historical preservation in museums "..... " collectors items purchased as an investment for financial gain "..... " tool for the sport of target practice, skeet shooting, etc "..... " weapons of war " ( decreased useage here however as other weapons replace and take the forefront ).... " a tool used in the sport of hunting ".... " tool utilized in Olympic Sport Training and Competition"...... weapon used in law enforcement ".... ",... " item utilized for Honor and Salute Ceremonies at Funerals".... a firearm used for family and personal protection ".... and so forth. As a matter of fact, " the rifle " is utilized much less frequently world wide these days as a " weapon of war" as for the other reasons I've just mentioned here. This is another reason why this single minded caricature of " the rifle " by someone at the Cadets as "a weapon of war " is so just so silly.

It did not say "weapon of war" it said "implement of war". And frankly that term encompasses all your variation of uses for a rifle. The word "Implement" does not purely weaponize the rifle (though it is) and to say that is "of war" is being true to its origin and innovation. It is "of war".

That however does not change the reason for the rifles existence or why it (or atleast it's hollow silhouette) is a part of drum corps in 2013. If you know rifles as well as I think you do then you would not fluff around the idea of how guards ended up spinning rifles and sabers. It is only in the purely militaristic means/methods that DCI has come to know rifles and it is only through the innovations of "implements of war" that we have rifles at all. If we care to respect the rifle through all its facets then it's lineage should not be tossed aside.

So while the rifle has itself many uses (though most for leathal or destructive purposes/ends) it shouldn't be beaten around the bush that rifles were designed for and by war and their implementation in such is/was their most significant use. It is neither silly or a single minded caricature to describe "rifles" as "implements of war".

Though the release was clearly being cheeky about the description and I have no idea why I keep posting in this thread.

Edited August 23, 2013 by charlie1223

[Tekneek]

Oh, but they are! Remember Panama 1989/90? It's how we got Noriega to surrender.

Good. We can start unraveling that finally. That's done way more harm to the activity than rifles and sabres.

[alumniof]

personally, I'm wondering one card is going to move away from traditional flags and rifles and movement and begin imitating life. For example, the dancing that people are doing now. More pop culture modern dance. With shows like do you think you can dance.and dancing like Jason Derulo and the types dot dot dot. If you want to talk about educating kids, bring that type of movement into Marching Band drum corps you increase your consumer base so instead of the monoculture kids looking at band as nothing a place for them, they're actually is a place for them. That's a lot of talented kids out there who can dance you can also then incorporate teaching them to do some traditional work but I'm ready for the general direction to move into that.

[perc2100]

ah, another dull day on DCP.

It's Hop being Hop.

EXACTLY! Is this a matter of, "everyone's zagging (rifles) so we're going to zig (alternate 'weapons')? Add a hot-button social issue (anti-gun/violence) into the mix. Either one of these things are par for the course for Hop & The Cadets. Frankly, neither one of those is cause to get all nutty about. If someone wants to try innovative designs, awesome! If someone wants to take a public stand for what they believe in, even cooler!

I think the more interesting thing is how crazy sentimental people seem to get about things that are not really that big a deal/important. Are rifles are part of the rich history of the activity? Of course. But when we think about what really matter to history & tradition, rifles in the guard are a footnote: equipment that may or may not someday become outdated.

+

We used slings in the 70's too, but that doesn't make the current carriers awful. As a percussionist that's the closest example I can think of (minus the social commentary). The sling was completely functional (still is to be honest), but companies made something even better that made carrying a drum more 'controllable' (more options) & easier for the members.

These rifle replacement things aren't much different. From the FN feeds I completely forgot they weren't using rifles until I saw a close-up, which tells me the cosmetic differences might be negligible from the stands. Are they easier to spin? That I don't know, but if they're at least comparable the really, who cares? This activity is so far away from what it used to be (and has been for decades), if we're clinging to rifles as a key link to the activities past we're grasping at straws.

Maybe I'm just atypical. I marched drum corps in the late 90's: with G-brass, acoustic front ensembles, and 128 members (though oddly enough if someone retooled a valved trombone to the key of G it would've been legal - go figure). I have zero problems with changes since I marched, mostly because I know that even five years before I marched a lot of horn lines had 2-valved instruments, and 10 years before I marched there were no free floating snares or kevlar heads. The activity tends to change significantly frequently, and if rifles are a thing of the past (and they don't seem to be yet), then why is that minor cosmetic change that big of a deal?