George Hopkins - soothsayer

[Stu]

Hmmm. My last point (a long one) didn't get posted.

First I asked for the poll you mentioned.

Then I said that while few object to guns in cop shows and westerns, if the characters in High School Musical or Death of a Salesman carried guns in their hands throughout much of the story just because it's traditional in movies and plays, I think you'd find some general objection to that tradition.

Then I said something about the fact that cheerleading squads should go ahead and make decisions based on PC considerations or any other considerations they feel to be in their interest. If the Cadets feel it is in their interest, then fine. If more members (and their parents) are attracted by the decision than repulsed, then it's a good decision.

Last spring I was involved with a HS play of Oklahoma; the cowboys all had holsters and plastic six shooters throughout the entire play; one mom in attendance voiced an objection; the drama department gave that person a refund for her and her two kids. The PC thing to do would have been to yank all the holsters and prop revolvers away from the actors to placate the mom; thank God that was not the case.

[garfield]

The PC thing to do is to placate; and when you placate one you open up the can to placating the next, then the next, then the next... then you run across conflicts on placating some and not others, then those having 180 degree differences of opinion begin to bark, etc... and sure there are things in drum corps which I do not like, and even offend me at times, and I have voiced some opinions; but I am not a selfish sort desiring the activity to placte my wishes because I think that my views have more validity than others. Example: When BAC did their Core of Temptation show I thought it was at the edge of being too risque for family type of entertainment, however the guy behind me was yelling, "Take it off, take it off!". If you were the director of BAC who would you placate... me, him, or would you just do your own thing, say bru ha ha to PC, and let us sort it out in the stands?

Ok, I admit it. That was me.

[Stu]

Ok, I admit it. That was me.

Ohhhhhh, so you were the one who wants a drum corps based in NV that has corporate sponsorship from the Bunny Ranch!!

[Spandy]

... if the characters in High School Musical or Death of a Salesman carried guns in their hands throughout much of the story just because it's traditional in movies and plays, I think you'd find some general objection to that tradition...

Interesting to note that when Glee featured color guard members in a performance, they were spinning airblades and not traditional rifles or sabers.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Spandy

[BRASSO]

Last spring I was involved with a HS play of Oklahoma; the cowboys all had holsters and plastic six shooters throughout the entire play; one mom in attendance voiced an objection; the drama department gave that person a refund for her and her two kids. The PC thing to do would have been to yank all the holsters and prop revolvers away from the actors to placate the mom; thank God that was not the case.

Well, it appears that some sillly school Admininistrators are equal opportunity distributors of the their own PC bannings, and it goes way beyond the ovverreaction to the thingys that the Bands have used for a few hundred years with no complaints. Get this silliness :

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/07/long-island-middle-school-bans-footballs-other-recreational-items/

[garfield]

Looks like having rifles - and loaded ones at that - might be called for when any musical ensemble enters Detroit.

http://www.fox11online.com/sports/packers-and-nfl/detroit-lions-player-dominic-raiola-accused-of-insulting-university-of-wisconsin-marching-band

"...nearly punched a band member for 'invading his space'?" I wonder what he thinks as he's bashing heads with an opposing player.

U of W band members ARE sissies, but I'd never admit that to some stupid football player. (<-- I keed. That's for one, particular poster here, and he knows who he is. )

[Pete Freedman]

The PC thing to do is to placate; and when you placate one you open up the can to placating the next, then the next, then the next... then you run across conflicts on placating some and not others, then those having 180 degree differences of opinion begin to bark, etc... and sure there are things in drum corps which I do not like, and even offend me at times, and I have voiced some opinions; but I am not a selfish sort desiring the activity to placte my wishes because I think that my views have more validity than others. Example: When BAC did their Core of Temptation show I thought it was at the edge of being too risque for family type of entertainment, however the guy behind me was yelling, "Take it off, take it off!". If you were the director of BAC who would you placate... me, him, or would you just do your own thing, say bru ha ha to PC, and let us sort it out in the stands?

A slippery slope argument is considered a fallacy, not a legitimate argument.

And of course if you had expressed your opinion about the BAC show on this website, and if they had changed the show based on objections including yours, that would have been a perfectly reasonable sequence of events.

What if Hopkins changed his stance on rifles based on your objections to it? Would that be PC? Would you then be the PC villain?

[Stu]

A slippery slope argument is considered a fallacy, not a legitimate argument.

However in practice that PC domino effect is exactly what is ocuuring in many school districts nation wide; (see the former links about a NY school now banning recreational actvities during recess, or the link about the new CA new law).

And of course if you had expressed your opinion about the BAC show on this website, and if they had changed the show based on objections including yours, that would have been a perfectly reasonable sequence of events.

It would have been perfectly in their right to do that, but it would also have been perfectly idiotic, not reasonable, to change their show based on PC placating. If the corps was being harmed (loss of revenue, loss of membership, loss of corporate sponsorship), or if the youth were being harmed (doing something 'illegal' such as exposing youth to actual porn instead of the shows artistic sexual innuendos), then it would have been reasonable to change the show concept.

What if Hopkins changed his stance on rifles based on your objections to it? Would that be PC? Would you then be the PC villain?

If Hopkins is making his decisions by placing his finger into the air and reading chat room blogs to find out the PC direction of some people I would highly question his leadership. This includes him making decisions on the the most controversial issue discussed on DCP, the G7. There is nothing wrong with collecting information from multiple sources, with DCP being one of the many sources, however Hopkins should always make decisions based on what is in the best interest of The Cadets, YEA, and all activites under his direction irrespective of placating and irrespective of PC issues.

[Pete Freedman]

Last spring I was involved with a HS play of Oklahoma; the cowboys all had holsters and plastic six shooters throughout the entire play; one mom in attendance voiced an objection; the drama department gave that person a refund for her and her two kids. The PC thing to do would have been to yank all the holsters and prop revolvers away from the actors to placate the mom; thank God that was not the case.

She was probably the tip of the iceberg of parents who hate guns to the extent that they don't want them 'promoted' to children. They think that playing with toy guns may increase the chances that they will play with a real one. They know their kids visit their friends' homes where there may be a real gun where that kid's daddy thinks it's well hidden. And kids get shot and killed in those situations quite often. Personally I think that's more a concern with young children that high school kids, but I would tend to be guided by whatever data exists on that. In any event it's not surprising that people feel that way.

[Stu]

She was probably the tip of the iceberg of parents who hate guns to the extent that they don't want them 'promoted' to children. They think that playing with toy guns may increase the chances that they will play with a real one. They know their kids visit their friends' homes where there may be a real gun where that kid's daddy thinks it's well hidden. And kids get shot and killed in those situations quite often. Personally I think that's more a concern with young children that high school kids, but I would tend to be guided by whatever data exists on that. In any event it's not surprising that people feel that way.

We may be getting too close to actual political discussions which break the DCP rule, so I will leave it at this: Please check the actual data: a) an overwhelming number, and I mean an overwhelming number of kids who spin wooden rifles, toss sabers, use props in plays and musicals, or even play with squirt guns, dart guns, air foam guns, paint ball guns, etc... never, and I mean never 'play' with real guns; most of them have parents who instruct and teach the difference and most who do not have those types of parents have common sense; and b) while there is an occasional tragedy, not only with a kid happening upon a real loaded firearm but also with finding and misusing scissors, baseball bats, screw drivers, air nail devices, and other items, those incidents are way, way, way less than a kid getting hurt by merely running and playing tag-your-it in a yard (which, by the way, is now banned at that NY school due to idiodic PC).