George Hopkins - soothsayer

[Pete Freedman]

And all that said, this study doesn't suggest how many of these are by guard members.

Easy. Just count the number of victims that were DCI visual judges.

[HockeyDad]

Clearly we need to stop allowing kids to ride in cars.

[Stu]

National Child Mortality Data. Note, as per this recent investigation, that what the layman might term "accidental" gun deaths are often officially categorized as "homicide", along with those deaths that more obviously qualify as such.

According to the data "in which you cite" only 0.2%, that is less than one quarter of one percent, of the youth mortality rate comes from accidental shooting from a firearm (which includes hunting accidents, weapons cleaned while loaded, mistaken identity during a home invasion, and a plethora of other activities along with kids 'playing' with guns), and it is three times less than youth death by burning in a fire which is 0.7%. Youth suicide by a firearm is only at 0.8% of all deaths and is less than self-strangulation at 0.9%. As for youth homicide with firearm, it is only 2.7% of all youth deaths (and this included all drug and gang related homicides like what is going on in the south side of Chicago). So, if you consider the PC complaints and 'banning' of things like wooden rifles and plastic sabers is correct the logical conclusion would be that you also favor the PC banning of any item on the MCH Center list which cause a higher youth mortality rate than firearms; like things associated with swimming (ie drowning) and motor vehicles which comes in at 8.1% of all youth fatalities. So, thanks for the data; it actually shows the outrageousness of the PC panic concerning firearms.

[GUARDLING]

According to the data "in which you cite" only 0.2%, that is less than one quarter of one percent, of the youth mortality rate comes from accidental shooting from a firearm (which includes hunting accidents, weapons cleaned while loaded, mistaken identity during a home invasion, and a plethora of other activities along with kids 'playing' with guns), and it is three times less than youth death by burning in a fire which is 0.7%. Youth suicide by a firearm is only at 0.8% of all deaths and is less than self-strangulation at 0.9%. As for youth homicide with firearm, it is only 2.7% of all youth deaths (and this included all drug and gang related homicides like what is going on in the south side of Chicago). So, if you consider the PC complaints and 'banning' of things like wooden rifles and plastic sabers is correct the logical conclusion would be that you also favor the PC banning of any item on the MCH Center list which cause a higher youth mortality rate than firearms; like things associated with swimming (ie drowning) and motor vehicles which comes in at 8.1% of all youth fatalities. So, thanks for the data; it actually shows the outrageousness of the PC panic concerning firearms.

I wont get into this debate with you this subject was beat to death a while ago and maybe brought up again just to stir the pot once again with GH BUT with all the statistics I wonder if one lived in or near newtown Ct.they would feel way different no matter what numbers show.

I dont want to see the traditional equipment go but like I have said in the pas,t guard people would spin anything and I think would be over the loss quickly.

Edited October 8, 2013 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

Car crashes kill far more kids than guns. But guns still kill too many.

Of course when any child dies it is a tragedy. But the proper use of a firearm (and the proper use of a prop in a play or musical) is a positive not a negative; and if we become PC and ban the firearm for being used improperly by some we must also be willing to ban other things (like scissors, baseball bats, well heck, even drum sticks) since they also can cause death whern used improperly.

But guns still kill too many.

The number of armed robbers, kidnappers, rapists, etc... killed by law abiding civilians using guns properly is by far greater than all youth firearm fatalities.

I find it unlikely that the use of a rifle by a color guard would indirectly lead to a shooting.

This we agree on.

But I wouldn't call someone who disagreed an idiot, either. Or a guard that used alternates because of that.

I never said anyone was an idiot. I did say, however, that knee-jerk PC decisions, especially when placed in context with actual data and facts, is idiodic.

If a double digit percentage of guards change to alternates because they think it will happen (without better evidence) then we could say the activity is overreacting.

But that 'is' the case; this is happening in spite of the hard data better evidence. The school administrations are 'overeacting' because they 'think' something will happen; and it is based on a few people, again a few people who complain that they do not like the shape of something.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Stu

[Stu]

... BUT with all the statistics I wonder if one lived in or near newtown Ct.they would feel way different no matter what numbers show...

Check the stats on the massive increase in gun sales to civilians around Newtown 'after' that tragic day and then get back with us.

[N.E. Brigand]

Hey! How did you get those links embedded in your text? I tried that and couldn't make it work? (thought the ability was gone)

That said, I don't get your point. Is it simply that there are far less "accidental" deaths than are typically known by the general public? I also see that suicide by firearm is .8% and wonder if that's included in the larger 2.8% homicide number, making homicides about the same as respiratory diseases? And all that said, this study doesn't suggest how many of these are by guard members. About the same number as is the number of babies killed in plane crashes, I suspect.

I think whatever concerns GH has about spinning rifles are probably overblown in his own mind.

There's a link button in the posting window. I used that.

And my point was only to assist others as regards Stu's suggestion that they look up the data on the "occasional tragedy" of accidental gun death with a link to some such data. (I could make some further points: Only 2,453 children died of SIDS in 2007! That's too few to worry about trying to prevent, right? And, contra a later post in this discussion ("the number of armed robbers, kidnappers, rapists, etc. ... killed by law-abiding civilians using guns properly is, by far, greater than all youth firearm fatalities"), it appears from the chart to which I linked that 3,007 children died from gun violence in 2007 while according to this gun-rights site, citizens kill 1,526 criminals each year with guns. That's only half as many, not "far greater".) The second link merely helps readers to understand a caveat about the data in the first link.

So far in this discussion, I had omitted my own personal feelings on these issues, so as not to run afoul of forum rules (this funny/sad short video more or less sums up my point of view), but here are my thoughts as regards the thread's central topic. I think there is no connection between gun violence and the use of "weapons" in band and corps shows, certainly far less than the connection to movies or video games, and that despite Hopkins's extrapolations based on the confused ideas of one talk show host (who was admittedly very popular at the time), corps ought to feel free to embrace the military roots of the activity as thoroughly as they like--as some will do, albeit not necessarily in simplistic or entirely traditional ways: see Bluecoats and Madison Scouts this year. That said, even in DCA where an award for best honor guard is still given, that judgment, as I understand it, does not count towards the overall score. There will be no returning to the days of inspections. (Just as there are no longer any actual figures skated in figure skating.) What drum corps once was need not necessarily be what it is.* So a proposal in DCI to require guards to use rifles and sabers rather than the alternatives sometimes used by the Cadets probably wouldn't pass. However, neither would a rule forbidding guards from using equipment of a military nature. Would more people follow corps if they more fully embraced their military roots, as you suggest? I'm not sure.

*On a tangent, this idea might interestingly compare to J.R.R. Tolkien's comments on the history of Catholic Church as "a living organism (likened to a plant), which develops and changes in externals by the interaction of its bequeathed divine life and history – the particular circumstances of the world into which it is set. There is no resemblance between the ‘mustard-seed’ and the full-grown tree ...The wise may know that it began with a seed, but it is vain to try and dig it up, for it no longer exists, and the virtue and powers that it had now reside in the Tree."

Edited October 8, 2013 by N.E. Brigand

[GUARDLING]

Check the stats on the massive increase in gun sales to civilians around Newtown 'after' that tragic day and then get back with us.

believe me I know plenty on the area and how many feel..although Not like others I would NEVER speak for any majority..IMO.sometimes stats, polls, etc etc are only as good as those who take part in them....thats it..........how many elected officials have we've seen low in the polls and who win or even on here or DCI info...Ive never trusted polls for any accurate info...............as i said this has been beat to death....who cares what we spin..or what the motive for GH statements, if it changes fine if it doesnt fine......This has been beat to death before and went nowhere ..gotta wonder if it was brought up AGAIN for the sake of the subject or GH....ughhhhh.............lol................peace

Edited October 8, 2013 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

Sometimes stats, polls, etc., etc. are only as good as those who take part in them, that's it. How many elected officials have we've seen low in the polls and who win ... I've never trusted polls for any accurate info.

Indeed. A lot of people ought to have learned something about reading polls eleven months ago, but I'm not getting the sense that they did.

Do you think the results of my poll about quiet show endings, which appeared to show that the favorite among DCP participants is Garfield Cadets' 1987 show, were accurate or not? Is there a non-responding majority of DCP members who really don't like that show after all?

[GUARDLING]

Indeed. A lot of people ought to have learned something about reading polls eleven months ago, but I'm not getting the sense that they did.

Do you think the results of my poll about quiet show endings, which appeared to show that the favorite among DCP participants is Garfield Cadets' 1987 show, were accurate or not? Is there a non-responding majority of DCP members who really don't like that show after all?

totally agree......although there are many here and else where that live by these polls like they are total fact and shows majority....so not true in most if not all cases