Should DCI add a Front Ensemble judge?

[perc2100]

Yes. Half of the percussion section is not being properly evaluated.

I mistakenly added this in a joke thread and figured that I'd just give its own thread here for discussion.

Here's how it ends up breaking down for a percussion judge (based on Jeff Prosperie's tape of Cadets Finals performance.) Based on this video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=k7iRbYRt3aM

A rough overview of the tape:

Battery - 1:56 - 4:20 ----- 2:24

Pit - 4:20 - 4:56 ----------- 0:36

Battery - 4:56 - 5:15 ----- 0:19

Pit - 5:15 - 5:40 ---------- 0:25

Transition ----------------- 0:09

Battery 5:49 - 7:05 ------ 1:16

Transition ------------------ 0:10

Pit - 7:15 - 9:30 ---------- 2:15

Transition - 9:30 --------- 0:20

Battery - 9:50 - 13:10 --- 3:20

Battery Total ------------- 7:19 = 59.9%

Pit Total ------------------- 4:16 = 34.9%

Transition ----------------- 0:39 = 5.3%

Total ----------------------- 12:14

So immedietly we can confirm that the pit does not get sampled as often as the battery and transitioning from section to section eats up about 5% of the evaluation time.

Now on top of that if we know the battery didn't play anything in the ballad and we can assume that the pit was doing something that could be judged for the entire performance so we can look at how much their total contribuition was actually judged based on how much they played. Really, just subtracting the ballad from the Battery's total even though we know they rested for longer periods of times during the other movements. But you can notice that a lot of the times when the pit was evaluated outside of the ballad the battery was also not playing thus increasing the concervative percentage of the battery's evaluated material.

Percentage of total material actually evaluated:

Pit = 34.9%

Battery = 77.2%+

Now the real discrepency is seen. Even though the pit objectively plays more often in the show, they are judged less! The Pit was only judged for 2 out of the 4 movements they played. While the battery was judged for all 3 movements in which they played including getting sampled for the ENTIRE 1st and 4th movements without pause. The pit was only evaluated for a portion of the second and not even the entirety of the third movement because of transition time. The judged missing out on the opener and Medea, the fastest part of the show.)

Jeff is perhaps one of the best, if not THE best, percussion judge we have in DCI and he did do a tremendous job that evening but you can see that there still is a major discrepency in how often the pit is sampled and as a result their contribution to final score. On the tape Jeff even acknowledges: "The harmonic motion things in the pit, which I don't think I heard before till tonight..." shows how much he is actually missing in the front ensemble even with a TOP proffessional.

We need to get away from the culture that says we can't miss anything the battery is doing because the pit is getting the short straw. It will never be perfect, but I definetly believe it can be way way better...

Interesting analysis: it's one thing to 'think' that battery gets favored over front ensemble, it's another to see the information spelled out this way. It would be interesting to talk to DCI & their Head Music Judge to see if that is the intention of the Percussion caption: i.e. perhaps this percentage of overwhelming battery attention is what is called for/wanted. What is difficult is that what sounds "OK" or at worst "maybe a little bit grey" from a distance is rendered crystal clear when standing directly in front of a battery section. In an activity of the best of the best, where the different between first place and second or third can be razor thin (and a spread in the Caption could make a difference in overall corps placement), I'm not sure I have a huge problem over-analyzing battery technique, cleanliness, subtlety, etc.

I personally really liked the judging from awhile back, when all of the field judges had an "ensemble" counterpart. While I admittedly have not heard a plethora of brass tapes over the years, I think a similar argument could be made about brass: that segmentally they are adjudicated more than the whole. Yes, that's what the overall Music judge is for, but that overall Music judge is also evaluating the ENTIRE music ensemble: battery, front ensemble, brass, and critiquing how well the entire ensemble plays. I personally would prefer a Brass Performance & Brass Ensemble judge as well as a Percussion Performance & Percussion Ensemble.

Of course, that doesn't address what you're saying, and I honestly don't know if the front ensemble got anymore love from the Percussion Ensemble judge (or the Percussion Judge 2 in the stands) then they do with the field judge. But it would be one way for a judge to evaluate the front ensemble contributions easier than judges running all over the field would.

But again, the $1million question is: are DCI Directors OK with the Percussion judge paying more attention to the battery than the front ensemble? If their answer is 'yes,' then really there's no discussion. If their answer is 'no,' then perhaps some more explicit direction from DCI Head Judges would be just as effective as the expense of adding an additional judge.

[Jeff Ream]

They already tried it and went back to the old way. There was a Perc 1 and Perc 2 judge from 04 - 09/10 ish (don't remember)??

One was field and one was Ensemble with the reasoning that between the two it would be a more fair assessment. I think it ended up costing more money and causing more issues than it helped solve.

yes but it was cut due to financial reasons, not for adjudication reasons.

I'm fine with having the upstairs guy back, though in a dome, I'm not sure what'd you'd hear. It really wasn't a FE guy solely, it was more like field and ensemble, then they';d average the two together

[Jeff Ream]

Wouldn't it be argued that they could actually enjoy the show more being in the front the whole time?

well no....with amps, and not being able to see the battery directly, I'd be bored ####less

Edited December 17, 2013 by MikeD
Filter circumvention

[Jeff Ream]

If the cost is huge factor then it can be a specialty judge at first which is only used at the last weeks of the season at the big shows. San Antonio, Atlanta, A-town, and Finals.

It's actually strange that we even have the battery and the pit in same category anymore. The approach and instrumentation is about as different as a tuba and a flute.

it was only really used at large regionals and finals week anyways. it wasn't used at everyday shows

[charlie1223]

yes but it was cut due to financial reasons, not for adjudication reasons.

I'm fine with having the upstairs guy back, though in a dome, I'm not sure what'd you'd hear. It really wasn't a FE guy solely, it was more like field and ensemble, then they';d average the two together

I'm talking more about a FE field guy. A battery field guy. Maybe even have them in two different scoring captions too....

[Jeff Ream]

I'm talking more about a FE field guy. A battery field guy. Maybe even have them in two different scoring captions too....

again....being down front, what would you hear? Everything coming from the speakers. you'd have to literally stand on top of them to get away from that.

[Tim K]

I agree that the pit should have its own judges and should be separated from percussion for one simple reason: a front ensemble is no longer just a percussion ensemble. It also shows that the front ensemble's contributions are recognized.

[MGCpimpOtimp]

again....being down front, what would you hear? Everything coming from the speakers. you'd have to literally stand on top of them to get away from that.

How close to the battery judges have to stand to get a good read? Most of the time they are pretty darn close! Also, it's not as bad as you would think as far as the speakers go. I kind of take offense to your comment about being bored standing in front of the pit for the entire show. Watch some full runs of pits in the lot, not a whole lot of down time. Front ensemble is about a lot more than keyboard notes as well. Are your suspended cymbal roll crescendos matching the brass inflection, is the orchestration too thick, are their layers that make sense with what else is going on. PLENTY for a qualified ear to talk about for an entire show.

[actucker]

It should be mentioned that the OP's analysis is based on ONE judges tape. No statistician would consider that even remotely useable as a sample size to make evaluations.

That being said, I do think that putting a second percussion judge maybe on the track would be good for percussion adjudication.

[Michael Boo]

Don't the judges enjoy shows as much as the fans? I'm curious because even though it's their responsibility to judge a show, I'm sure it could get quite boring if a judge is forced to stand in front of the pit for the entire show.

If the judge was a front ensemble person earlier in the music career, then would be most happy to judge and enjoy the endless variety of sounds produced by a pit.