Jeff Ream Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Jeff's statement was: I support A because reasons X, Y, Z. My response was: X, Y, Z are also reasons to support B. Therefore Jeff should support B, but he doesn't, so he's being inconsistent. That's not a straw man argument. It would only be a straw man argument if I seriously claimed that Jeff actually supported B. (I thought that my "I guess you must support" retort to Jeff was clearly sarcastic, but apparently you didn't read it that way.) I was long inconsistent myself. I never even heard of drum corps until the late 1980s, so I have always known corps to have pits, and I have enjoyed the music that comes from the pits, and really I don't want to see the pits go away. But when amplification and then electronics were introduced, that seemed wrong, and when I tried to figure out why I felt that way, I realized that any argument I might make against those elements, by pointing to what seemed to me to be the essential nature of drum corps (excellence in the form of a marching,* acoustic, brass and percussion ensemble) would be undercut by arguments that I was being inconsistent, because the pit doesn't move. So I had to give up the pit, i.e., allow that they too should be penalized. *Good point about moving vs. marching. I'll substitute the former term for the latter from now on. There was a marching vs. choreography thread much discussed here in the past few months, to which I meant but forgot to contribute, to the effect that marching is dance--it's just the best kind of dance for musicians to use. So how would you define drum corps? Earlier this year, one DCP contributor wrote: Maybe that works for you, as well. I'd note, however, that the same poster, nominally open to woodwinds and whatever else comes along, has also indicated that, partly because of electronics, he'd rather listen to horn lines in the lot than the shows on field. And shawms are still awesome. actually you adding B is very strawman, because the Front ensemble and woodwinds really are two totally different beasts. Not supporting woodwinds doesnt make me inconsistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 actually you adding B is very strawman, because the Front ensemble and woodwinds really are two totally different beasts. Not supporting woodwinds doesnt make me inconsistent. Yeah I would think once one makes the leap of "you supporting something that is currently 100% legal under DCI rules = you supporting something that is currently 100% illegal under DCI rules" is pretty much textbook definition of straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Where's that pic of Darth Hoppy saying "I will make it legal" when you need it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Yeah I would think once one makes the leap of "you supporting something that is currently 100% legal under DCI rules = you supporting something that is currently 100% illegal under DCI rules" is pretty much textbook definition of straw man. well this is DCP in the offseason...logic can actually apply less now than during the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 FWIW, I totally support a front ensemble judge. I think the current setup shafts both marching and pit musicians, whose techniques and responsibilities have very little to do with each other. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Lest I be seen as excessively Stu-dious, I won't argue further about the definition of "straw man", which gets outside the point of this discussion. Let me repeat only that I never believed, nor meant anyone else to seriously believe, that Jeff was in favor of woodwinds, and I'm sorry my earlier comments weren't more clear about that point. My apologies, Jeff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 You do realize there is more to demand than just physical, as well, correct? You also have environmental demands ... listening, and that can change from venue to venue. Hell, we've seen on here that not even all of the domes sound the same (or excuse me, enclosed stadia with a roof thingie overhead). Does the front ensemble suffer more than other parts of the corps from environmental demands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGCpimpOtimp Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Suffer is the wrong word. Environmental demand is not really the focus, it is part of a bigger "Simultaneous Responsibility". So, for instance, lining up a vibraphone part with a player on 20 yards away on the other side of the pit is a big environmental demand. Lining up tempo with the battery who is behind a horn line playing whole notes at FFF is an environmental demand. As a timpanist, listening to the horns for pitch, but the drums for tempo while they are 50 yards apart was particularly challenging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Is it understood that pit players are listening more to brass/battery than the reverse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Lest I be seen as excessively Stu-dious, I won't argue further about the definition of "straw man", which gets outside the point of this discussion. Let me repeat only that I never believed, nor meant anyone else to seriously believe, that Jeff was in favor of woodwinds, and I'm sorry my earlier comments weren't more clear about that point. My apologies, Jeff. no worries. I was more worried about you than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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