DCI membership votes overwhelmingly to allow ALL brass instruments in

[mingusmonk]

Hello, it's me, oldschooldbc, officially the lowest rater poster in the history of DCP.

You give yourself too much credit. As I post this, you are at -91.

I haven't searched members thoroughly, but a quick glance at Daniel Ray's profile shows -1159061. So you need to step up your game ... significantly. Then again, negative votes are no longer available in the new version of DCP software. You are going to need a new claim to fame.

Stick around though. Seriously.

Edited February 11, 2014 by mingusmonk

[Mello Dude]

Words from SCV arranger JD Shaw-

Ok, guys, I guess I better stop with all the shenanigans and give you my take on the latest DCI rule change. If you're my friend on here, you know my sense of humor is a bit warped but I'm also extremely passionate about this activity.

My friends in the classical music world always ask why I am involved in something like marching band and DCI. I simply tell them that from a teaching standpoint it's one of the purest teaching environments: you get highly dedicated students putting in hundreds of hours to achieve a common team-oriented goal. There's not much paperwork, angry parents, or daily distractions to get in the way. The students are focused and obsessive in their strive for excellence. Also, these students get to play for not just hundreds and thousands of people but TENS of thousands of people.

In terms of the rule change, I really don't care one way or the other if they include trombones, French horns or sousaphones. Personally, I don't plan on fielding any of these sections anytime soon. But I also don't see any need in limiting these instruments either. I love brass, ALL brass. If an arranger is playing jazz and wants to include a trombone sound, why not? If an arranger wants to play Richard Wagner and include a French horn sound, why not? The natural evolution of these instruments on the field have already determined their usage. Trombones are hard to deal with from a visual standpoint and French horns are a monster to negotiate from both an accuracy and projection standpoint. The marching world, whether it is BOA or DCI have already figured this out. Using them in a targeted, featured fashion could be really cool. I do prefer the sound of a bell-front tuba to a sousaphone. But I am certainly thankful that we have the sousaphone to help in the development of young tuba players that could be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the shoulder mounted tuba.

I don't think anyone goes out to design a show to anger an audience. I spend a lot of time during the season at contests studying the audience and adjusting my scores to achieve the maximum amount of effect and engagement. If I were to put a trombone solo on the field and the audience hated it, I would change it. However, if I were able to make the audience love that moment, then we've created something new and exciting. The market (audience) will drive the success and failure of this rule change.

Some people say this makes us too much like BOA. To that I say, the difference lies in the general maturity of the performers, the number of rehearsal hours AND the level of excellence able to be achieved. The other obvious difference is the inclusion of woodwinds. For me personally, I like the all brass nature of our activity. I love BOTH DCI and BOA but prefer DCI to stay all brass. I, myself, would not wanna see woodwinds in DCI. I don't want to listen to woodwinds in English Brass Bands or a trumpet in a woodwind quintet. These are personal preferences. But, I'm NOT going to tell other arrangers that they cannot explore other options of artistry that they see fit. I will let the consumers (audience) decide if it works or not.

I am humbled to be involved in an activity that is so important to people that they get passionate about their beliefs. I wouldn't change that for anything. The traditions of the activity are extremely important to me. But I do believe the traditions are not merely based in the instrumentation, rather in the level of excellence, commitment, innovation and the life-changing performances that students experience. Whether you are a self-proclaimed dinosaur or a risk-taking modernist provocateur, you are welcomed with open arms into this debate. The thing we have in common is our love for this activity and no one's opinion is invalid. We can trust that not everyone will agree %100 of the time but that no one is seeking to destroy an activity which has given ALL of us so much. DCI is made up of people not electronics, not G bugles, not sousaphones, not flags in harnesses, not body movements, but people. Let's not just run away and dismiss ourselves in the debate. We need to work together and trust that the right decisions will be made and that, if they prove unsuccessful, we will make the necessary corrections.

Please realize this is just my $.02. I can't wait to see all the shows this summer. I know they are gonna be fabulous regardless of the instrumentation. I sincerely hope to see everyone there cheering on these kids that REALLY are the ones who make the magic happen!

"..I will let the consumers (audience) decide if it works or not."

Yep +1. I'm not going. I'll support the TRUE KIDS of this activity and go to the local BAND shows and help in the booster organization.

[garfield]

You give yourself too much credit. As I post this, you are at -91.

I haven't searched members thoroughly, but a quick glance at Daniel Ray's profile shows -1159061. So you need to step up your game ... significantly. Then again, negative votes are no longer available in the new version of DCP software. You are going to need a new claim to fame.

Stick around though. Seriously.

Better than my reply to him, eh JohnZ? (Thanks for keeping me in line, and not giving me a warning.)

I agree with all of the above.

Except that last part, of course.

[hawthorne62]

.Bob Seger perhaps said it best; "wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"....a few years ago I projected it was just a matter of time before Hoppy (or some of the other usual suspects) would get rules changes implemented allowing The Cadets to field perhaps 24 trombones and open their show with Wilsons "76 Trombones" from "The Music Man".....the Director, out front in an all white uni, waving a traditional band baton.....rules changes will be made to allow one(1) overage person on the field...honestly it doesn't take much insight to see this coming...and I was joking at the time!

My only mistake was not seeing what I thought were formerly solid Drum Corps people like Jim Mason lurking on the back sideline until they could get in a position to bring marching band into the unique art form that Drum Corps used to be and change it.....forever.....Change for the sake of change is what it's about....."innovation" 'pushing the envelope' 'improving the educational aspect for young people' These people, music and program directors, 'artistic consultants' or whatever they fancy themselves have no regard for some of the unique features of Drum Corps that clearly distinguish it from marching band.. They obviously see no need to retain any feature of Drum Corps, they believe the definition of what 'Drum Corps' is MUST change.....constantly. .must be 'dynamic' and those against this 'evolution' are 'short sighted' 'old school' or some other ... We must see the future as they do because they are the 'educators' and know what is best for the survival of our activity.

.

Drum Corps has changed dramatically from my time marching in the 50s and 60s, and mostly, the changes have been amazing.. Military style marching formations, squad movements etc etc vanished in the minds and eyes of visionaries that created real innovation that evolved into the field movement that is truly mind-blowing today.. The Cavaliers and The Cadets drill shows come to mind...(except for the 'picnic tables' show) No question this change was important and expanded the artistic spectrum of what constitutes Drum Corps.

Bb instrumentation was initially a shocker for me... I liked the raw edge of G horns, brassy with a timbre and projection unique to the horn that you don't get with Bb/F horns..Surely they were out of tune..Maybe the Bb change made sense.. The most difficult part of the change from my point of view was what would happen to those Corps who could ill afford buying a whole new line of instruments, but wanting to keep-up or compete in the activity would be compelled to eventually (or quickly ) go into debt for Bb instruments.. You know this had to hurt! The proponents of this change could have cared less that some Corps might not be able to broker similar deals with Yamaha, King or whomever the Top 6 might get...and then peddle the 'used-on-the-field by" horns at the end of the season at absurd prices.

Just business, kids..

A friend of mine who marched Cadets back when, said of the DCI move to Indianapolis, that he saw this as a natural progression because BOA is headquartered there after moving from Schaumberge Il.and he believed eventually BOA and DCi would be represented under a singular umbrella, merged as one.. All rules changes up to this point might indicate a move in this direction so if Jim Mason, Hoppy, David Gibbs and the other usual suspects point to their extensive and impressive biographies and ask how peasants like me can challenge where they are trying to go with Drum Corps, what do we know!

What to keep and what to discard is what real innovation is about...Failing to recognize, or even care, what is substantial and worth keeping in the long history of Drum Corps has been very sad, to me anyway, and I bet I am not the only person who has held a life-long involvement with the activity since they used to march, who would hate marching behind that trombone player off the field and into the tunnel .............

Clarinets?....

[camel lips]

Words from SCV arranger JD Shaw-

Ok, guys, I guess I better stop with all the shenanigans and give you my take on the latest DCI rule change. If you're my friend on here, you know my sense of humor is a bit warped but I'm also extremely passionate about this activity. [/size]My friends in the classical music world always ask why I am involved in something like marching band and DCI. I simply tell them that from a teaching standpoint i[/size]t's one of the purest teaching environments: you get highly dedicated students putting in hundreds of hours to achieve a common team-oriented goal. There's not much paperwork, angry parents, or daily distractions to get in the way. The students are focused and obsessive in their strive for excellence. Also, these students get to play for not just hundreds and thousands of people but TENS of thousands of people.

In terms of the rule change, I really don't care one way or the other if they include trombones, French horns or sousaphones. Personally, I don't plan on fielding any of these sections anytime soon. But I also don't see any need in limiting these instruments either. I love brass, ALL brass. If an arranger is playing jazz and wants to include a trombone sound, why not? If an arranger wants to play Richard Wagner and include a French horn sound, why not? The natural evolution of these instruments on the field have already determined their usage. Trombones are hard to deal with from a visual standpoint and French horns are a monster to negotiate from both an accuracy and projection standpoint. The marching world, whether it is BOA or DCI have already figured this out. Using them in a targeted, featured fashion could be really cool. I do prefer the sound of a bell-front tuba to a sousaphone. But I am certainly thankful that we have the sousaphone to help in the development of young tuba players that could be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the shoulder mounted tuba.

I don't think anyone goes out to design a show to anger an audience. I spend a lot of time during the season at contests studying the audience and adjusting my scores to achieve the maximum amount of effect and engagement. If I were to put a trombone solo on the field and the audience hated it, I would change it. However, if I were able to make the audience love that moment, then we've created something new and exciting. The market (audience) will drive the success and failure of this rule change.

Some people say this makes us too much like BOA. To that I say, the difference lies in the general maturity of the performers, the number of rehearsal hours AND the level of excellence able to be achieved. The other obvious difference is the inclusion of woodwinds. For me personally, I like the all brass nature of our activity. I love BOTH DCI and BOA but prefer DCI to stay all brass. I, myself, would not wanna see woodwinds in DCI. I don't want to listen to woodwinds in English Brass Bands or a trumpet in a woodwind quintet. These are personal preferences. But, I'm NOT going to tell other arrangers that they cannot explore other options of artistry that they see fit. I will let the consumers (audience) decide if it works or not.

I am humbled to be involved in an activity that is so important to people that they get passionate about their beliefs. I wouldn't change that for anything. The traditions of the activity are extremely important to me. But I do believe the traditions are not merely based in the instrumentation, rather in the level of excellence, commitment, innovation and the life-changing performances that students experience. Whether you are a self-proclaimed dinosaur or a risk-taking modernist provocateur, you are welcomed with open arms into this debate. The thing we have in common is our love for this activity and no one's opinion is invalid. We can trust that not everyone will agree %100 of the time but that no one is seeking to destroy an activity which has given ALL of us so much. DCI is made up of people not electronics, not G bugles, not sousaphones, not flags in harnesses, not body movements, but people. Let's not just run away and dismiss ourselves in the debate. We need to work together and trust that the right decisions will be made and that, if they prove unsuccessful, we will make the necessary corrections.

Please realize this is just my $.02. I can't wait to see all the shows this summer. I know they are gonna be fabulous regardless of the instrumentation. I sincerely hope to see everyone there cheering on these kids that REALLY are the ones who make the magic happen![/size]

Someone sign him up for Amway salesman of the year because I bet he could sell a bunch of vitamins and herbal enhancements .

[bawker]

. . .what bothers me the most about this rule passing is that I'm finding it hard to care.

I hope that changes somewhat as the season gets closer; it's a weird feeling.

[corpsband]

. . .what bothers me the most about this rule passing is that I'm finding it hard to care.

I hope that changes somewhat as the season gets closer; it's a weird feeling.

Probably a perfectly reasonably scaled reaction.

Despite the DCP brouhaha it won't dramatically change the actiivity. People can use trombones in solos or small ensembles. Big deal. No one's going to field a full line of sousas or going to march with concert french horns.

[cowtown]

All the other proposals that were to grow the activity seem to have failed. I’d like to have these new rules introduced as probationary, and have to prove themselves to be maintained.

So what’s the metric for measurable, tangible, provable results that this will grow the activity? Where is the follow up?

more empty words from empty artists trying to pretend a trombone is new, innovative and they are somehow relevant well past their expiration date by putting one on the field...undiscovered cancer is new too

To me, a better solution would be to reduce corps size back to 135-128 people. The increase to 150 is one of the worst rules ever for all but a few tops corps. Most people have yet to realize how destructive that rule was in solidifying an uneven playing field across tiers of corps.

And save it about the ensemble sound, texture, timbre, color and all the other smurfy words designers employee to dress up and sell their product

So a lower placing corps can’t fill out a line as is and brings in some of this outsider brass…sort of the kiss of death for that corps.. What they gain in a very few members will be lost with the dork/ uncool corps factor. This is a blow against the cool of DCI

Overall, my impression is: DCI, now with even more suck !!!

I’m sort of surprised how little I care or how resigned I am to this, much different than years ago when I was passionate and would rant against this sort of desecration. Oh well, sure will make it easier when they finish off DCI for good. *Yawn* This is probably my most important point

And since we all pretend its about the kids to you I say, you were sold out, you need to speak up…don’t be intimidated by name staff, don't sell yourself out too

And Madison, you are off my ‘buy their junk list’. I too am petty like that...

[perc2100]

Probably a perfectly reasonably scaled reaction.

Despite the DCP brouhaha it won't dramatically change the actiivity. People can use trombones in solos or small ensembles. Big deal. No one's going to field a full line of sousas or going to march with concert french horns.

Also, it's hard to even get remotely worked up about a broad concept. Now people can use whatever brass they want: that's all we know. We have zero ideas of how this will be implemented (other than the occasional corps arranger who has specified, such as SCV's arranger saying he will NOT be implementing anytime soon), so getting all worked up thinking of a doomsday scenario is just goofy. Adding trombones will not kill the activity any more than marching asymmetrical drill did.

If a corps decides to march sousaphones, and the end product doesn't work? By all means lets discuss that mistake. But at this point we have a basic concept of a rule change with know context of how it will be implemented this season or beyond: getting upset over that is just dumb.

[Jeff Ream]

I am just going ask a few questions...

What is the end game of all of this? What overarching vision do the leadership have for the activity? Who possess it, who articulates it?

It has been stated the the recent round of changes regrading instrumentation will....

1. Get more students involved.

Show me the proof, show me evidence that more people will be drawn to "drum corps" as a result of instrumentation changes. More students will come just because someone said they would? How many 10-15 more students trying out per unit? More students, more money. More money.

Would more students be involved if it did not require 3000-4000 dollars to march?

2. It would allow "drum corps" to utilize more colors.

I suppose that's true. Like the same colors found in orchestral and band music? Is it really going to be that earth-shattering and open up whole new vistas of color? What's going to be the cost on the staff side to hire a pro horn teacher? Are corps going to have to get new trucks or another truck to haul new equipment? You will need more money, allegedly from the hoards of new students to pay for these upgrades. But back to the creativity point...

Using these "new" sounds to be on the cutting edge. Is the cutting edge to sound more band like? Is it worth making people upset for some glissando effects or to have a chamber brass ensemble. Is the only way we can be creative is borrowing from other ensemble's sound and mixing them with a "drum corps"? How different does a sousaphone sound from a marching tuba anyway?

Drum Corps (without the quotes) used to be something unique. I believe in the value of that uniqueness. As a friend of mine said to me today, I have never gotten tired of the sound of brass and percussion. Never.

What is "drum corps" offering that is so different from what students get at a competitive band band in the fall. Touring? The experience of working with your fellow corps members and achieving as a group. Yes! Absolutely! I do question the touring model. 30 shows in 50 days, no real down time, no real time to recover, all night bus trips and a couple hours on the floor and right back at it. If you are lucky you might have a 3 or 4 (very rare) day period somewhere in the summer to do tweaks and changes, hopefully is does not rain. Other than that, 5 shows a week with lots of travel. I worry about the safety and the nightly gambles of 8 hours bus trips. I taught a group that did not tour properly, bad tires running lights that did not work, a straight up drum corps jalopy. I would like to think everybody is traveling safely, but I still see corps pulling into parking lots with windows propped open because the AC is out and because of the travel demands it can't be fixed properly. I digress....

Let me come back to where I started? What's the end game? What's the vision? Don Angelica had a vision. Gale Royer, Bobby Hoffmann, Jim Jones (my old corps director) just to name a few. Mr. Angelica's vision was rooted in music. Corps used to take way more musically risks, it may not have been as refined as today, but it was exciting. Check out the '82 Sky Ryders...check out the rifle line, check out the musical meat in that show....it was 10th place. There are "BOX 5" brass sections today who's tuba music consisted of a grand total of 28 bars of rhythm that were not whole notes, I know I counted. Before the end of the season those rhythms ended up being watered..."Box 5."

Who possess a vision now? Is that vision inclusive of the activity as a whole or a few? Does that vision include preserving the uniqueness of Drum Corps? Are we just surviving year to year?

If the end game is simply to get more students involved how many will fulfill the definition of success? Do we just keep making corps larger and larger?

Adding more and more "colors" not native to drum corps traditionally will put more people in the seats? Where's the evidence?

With electronics we can make ANY sound we want. The number one complaint of people surveyed at shows is they are getting blown out by speakers by the groups who do not do amplification well.

People act as though the activity had moved forward, it some ways it certainly has, but, when I see 40,000 people in the stands at Finals again I know we have stopped the slow steady erosion of a once unique activity.

illegal use of logic, reasoning and fact.

the only real vision any DCI Director has really come out and spelled out is Hopkins, and this plays nicely into his vision.