Members have changed so why not the activity

[BRASSO]

Even though members have changed, I will admit that I still spend at least a day or 2 every season with the corps that I marched with in the 70's while they are passing though our city. I still get excited as I watch the buses pull up and as I watch them run to the last set to clean the drill and see the improvements as they practice in the burning sun throughout the day. Is this what I thought drum corps would be like in the 2000"s?.... probably not, but I get to know a few of the members every year and DO know that they are getting out of corps exactly what I got out of corps 35 plus years ago.

Yes, I think there is pretty much universal agreement in most quarters that the character building traits, the excitement of group competition, and camaraderie, etc developed with participation in Drum Corps hasn't changed since like forever, no matter what they wear or carry.

Edited March 1, 2014 by BRASSO

[charlie1223]

Let us consider the activity of Running. According to the various dictionary definitions of the word 'Sport':

Running to flag down a cab in order to make it to your office workplace on time would not be considered a Running 'Sport'; however...

Running for the sake of enjoyment, health, or competition would be considered a Running 'Sport'.

Running for the sake of not being late =/= sport. Running for the sake of running == sport.

So the definition of what a sport is depends on what one's intention is. And the second the intention changes than its no longer a sport. So then ANYTHING can be sport if you do that thing for the "right reason".

This is dumb.

Edited March 1, 2014 by charlie1223

[charlie1223]

Again flawed reasoning; you cannot specifically show via those same dictionaries that drum corps is an 'Art' either. However, by reading and understanding the dictionary definitions of the word 'Art' one can reasonably and logically conclude that drum corps is an Art; and by reading and understanding the definitions of the word 'Sport' one can also reasonably and logically conclude that drum corps is a Sport.

Everything can be reasoned through the semantic game to be a either a "sport" or "art". Literally everything that exists can be classified as one thing or another if you spin it. I don't see how that really helps with Understanding which is the whole point of language in the first place.

[Stu]

Running for the sake of not being late =/= sport. Running for the sake of running == sport.

So the definition of what a sport is depends on what one's intention is. And the second the intention changes than its no longer a sport. So then ANYTHING can be sport if you do that thing for the "right reason".

This is dumb.

Everything can be reasoned through the semantic game to be a either a "sport" or "art". Literally everything that exists can be classified as one thing or another if you spin it. I don't see how that really helps with Understanding which is the whole point of language in the first place.

All Corvettes are Chevrolets; however, all Chevrolets are not Corvettes. That is not dumb, that is not spin, but fact based on commonly agreed to authoritative definitions of the words Corvette and Chevrolet. And by utilizing commonly accepted authoritative sources to define the words ‘sport’, ‘band’, ‘drum’, corps’, ‘marching’, and 'art', and placing those words in proper English syntax and language context, the following holds true: All drum corps activities are arts activities, but not all arts activities are drum corps activities; all drum corps activities are sports activities, but all sports activities are not drum corps activities, and all drum corps are marching bands, but not all marching bands are drum corps. Unless, of course, you want to be obtuse and disregard this by using a perception is reality narcissistic type phrase like, “No matter; I consider…”

[HockeyDad]

DCI is a subjectively judged athletic competition; Olympic Ice Dancing is also a subjectively judged athletic competition. While there are some differences, both have contestants engaging in a physically demanding activity adjudicated by a panel of qualified personnel who give out scores and rankings based on specific judging sheet criteria. Please, by all means, attempt to debunk that sports analogy.

Waaaat? It's summer marching band. Is marching band an "art" or "sport"? Uh, no.

[seen-it-all]

All Corvettes are Chevrolets; however, all Chevrolets are not Corvettes. That is not dumb, that is not spin, but fact based on commonly agreed to authoritative definitions of the words Corvette and Chevrolet. And by utilizing commonly accepted authoritative sources to define the words ‘sport’, ‘band’, ‘drum’, corps’, ‘marching’, and 'art', and placing those words in proper English syntax and language context, the following holds true: All drum corps activities are arts activities, but not all arts activities are drum corps activities; all drum corps activities are sports activities, but all sports activities are not drum corps activities, and all drum corps are marching bands, but not all marching bands are drum corps. Unless, of course, you want to be obtuse and disregard this by using a perception is reality narcissistic type phrase like, “No matter; I consider…”

Do Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Cambridge, et al, define "drum corps" as a sport? I'm having trouble even locating a definition in any of the "authoritative cultural sources," either online or in hard copy texts. The only definition I've found for "drum corps" was on a site called dictionary.com. It's not as prestigious in name as those others, but at least it had SOME kind of definition for "drum corps."

drum corps

-noun

a band, especially a marching band, of drum players usually under the direction of a drum major.

Origin:

1860–65, Americanism

I'll be the first to admit, dictionary.com is not something I would immediately run to in order to find the definition of a word, because it DOES lack that authoritative nature of the other sources you mention. And like anyone else, I laughed at their definition of drum corps because it so clearly does not fit in my mind as anything resembling what I've come to know about the activity. But after that laughter subsided, I had to ask...is anything that definition states untrue? It may have left many things out, but it hasn't really made any false statements. That's kind of the problem with running to the dictionary to solve these types of quandaries. You're so busy telling everyone the definition of sport, and band, and corps, and drum, and art, but certainly you have to realize that what truly matters here is the definition of DRUM CORPS. And you have yet to really define that term for anyone, at least by utilizing those great authoritative cultural sources we all hold in such high esteem. And for one simple reason. Those sources don't even (so far as I know) actually define drum corps.

But I think the larger point to be made here is that when it comes to the extrapolation of "truths" by (as you say) placing certain defined words in proper English syntax and language context, is that all you're proving is that you "consider" drum corps to be a sport. Just like I "consider" drum corps not to be a sport. Neither one of those statements is necessarily true, but considering the lack of those sources actually defining those terms for us the way we want them to, all we have left is to extrapolate their meaning in some other way, even if that sometimes means venturing outside the authoritative cultural texts of our time. In other words, whether those extrapolations are true or not becomes a matter of personal interpretation. That's what I've done and that's what you've done, only I'm willing to admit it and you're not.

For example, you've cited the highly competitive nature of drum corps as one of the reasons you think it's a sport. But not all drum corps compete. (The same could be said for marching bands, which you've also gone on record now as being a sport.) So do you believe a dictionary would even bother getting into the competitive aspect of the activity at all in their definition? Or would they just define what the group itself IS and not so much what it DOES (or can sometimes do)? I would imagine that no dictionary when defining something like drum corps or marching band would bother getting into matters such as the demographic make-up of membership, specific individual instrumentation, the seasonal nature of when groups tend to compete, or even that there is a competitive aspect to the activity to begin with. As silly as the dictionary.com definition of drum corps is, that's the kind of definition I would expect to see in ANY authoritative cultural source. It purposefully leaves specific things out in order to encapsulate the more broad-based essence of what something is, and it doesn't always take into consideration things the culture more or less agrees upon which lie outside of their authoritative scope. That makes it a terrific resource, as we all know, but it doesn't make it the end-all be-all.

I have one final thing I'll say on the subject and then I'll leave it to you to tell me how wrong I am by citing even more definitions of other terms without actually referencing any authoritative cultural definition of the one term that matters here, that being "drum corps." Many people here have gone back and forth now for a few pages trying to define drum corps in a variety of ways. There have been entire threads dedicated to this in the past as well, making up thousands upon thousands of words and thoughts and ideas. I think that's a good thing because I like drum corps and I like language. But one thing I'm reasonably certain of is that no matter how we see or define ourselves, or how we WANT to see or define ourselves, whether we "consider" drum corps to be a sport or not, the folks outside our little bubble of drum corps awesomeness will never really accept it as a sport. You know those folks. The culture. They've already spoken on the matter. And they didn't require any authoritative sources to tell them so.

Enjoy arguing with yourself. I'm going to eat some cookies. Maybe we all should.

Edited March 1, 2014 by seen-it-all

[Mello Dude]

It's simple, drum corp used (always was) to be a subset of the marching band group. Now it's simply "marching band". In fact I would go one step further and say that it's marching band that competes in the DCI circuit. The problem comes when you try to couple meaning into what individual experiences and perceptions are. Doesn't work. You see this all the time today with people that can't read things like the Constitution of the United States and understand what it says or doesn't say.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Mello Dude

[GUARDLING]

It's simple, drum corp used (always was) to be a subset of the marching band group. Now it's simply "marching band". In fact I would go one step further and say that it's marching band that competes in the DCI circuit. The problem comes when you try to couple meaning into what individual experiences and perceptions are. Doesn't work. You see this all the time today with people that can't read things like the Constitution of the United States and understand what it says or doesn't say.

but a bigger question is WHY do things need to stay the same....if something worked in the past who says it has to be that way now...people always go back to core beliefs...well who says those beliefs cant or wont change and why do people need to live under an archaic belief IF times and needs have changed. BECAUSE THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US SAID SO? hmmmmm if that were the case even our country wouldnt be a free country and still under anothers rule and drum corps would still be under the thumb of the pre DCI regulations...............as far as the band thing Im from BITD and ALWAYS corrected those who called us a band. BUT i have learned we were no different..who cares whats being plaed or done its exactly what we were. We didnt like the comparison because we felt we were oh so superior and maybe in the past we were. Seems like a silly argument and only serious to those who still take offence to something even silly bitd...........it's an argument that goes round and round ..over and over...maybe for all time....like one generation thing to another....will never change BUT it's not going back EVER , at least the way it was...how can it?.....so maybe an argument where maybe some change can actually happen should take the place rather than those arguments that cant.................I suppose though that maybe cant happen either..............I really believe in most things that if people looked at the things that are similar and that bring everyone together instead of the differences that there would be a happier, more supportive , and more unified activity,....There IMO is way more the same that we all share than differeces...isnt it time to share the activity with respect of the past and support of the future and realise neither OWN the activity..we only maintain it while we are involved.....there's so many reasons why the activity could have totally gone away..like many things from the past...isnt that alone a testement to those who maintained it to this point and to those who struggle to maintain something that could have easily been just a memory.....jmo

Edited March 1, 2014 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

Why are folks outside of the "bubble", as seen-it-all say, capable of accepting figure skating, even ice dancing, as a sport, while being unable to believe the same of drum corps?

[BigW]

Why are folks outside of the "bubble", as seen-it-all say, capable of accepting figure skating, even ice dancing, as a sport, while being unable to believe the same of drum corps?

Simple. It's "Band". Buncha freaks and geeks. The people you crack the line about Band Camp from "American Pie" to when you meet them. Not to be taken seriously like a "real" sport.

Heck, there are people especially in the NY metro area that don't think anything beyond the stick and ball sports are sports. They don't think of Tennis as a sport for crying out loud, and NASCAR drivers, athletes? Nah. Listen to WFAN enough and you'll hear that opinion a lot.

I've been on record multiple times saying its a waste of effort trying to mass market the activity beyond its niche, and a waste of time to try and get the normal slob out there to take us seriously. the people who count take us seriously and that's all that counts, really. Every so often, a "normal" like Bobby Knight or Mr. Cook gets it, and really- for that I am thankful.

Edited March 1, 2014 by BigW