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Members have changed so why not the activity


Tupac

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Horsehockey. First, "perception is reality" is a fact...for that person (and that person alone). Your perception is your reality. My perception is my reality. And guess what? There will always be a third person who will jump in and say "XXXX, you're both idiots!!" I would much rather make the statement that "I'm NOT saying I'm correct just because I'm the one that's saying it" than "This is the way it is...it IS because I said so!!!" You can state things any way you wish...as for me, I'd rather not pretend that my views are definitively correct for all.

Look, Stu...it was not my intent to get riled at your viewpoint(s). Lord knows we've been on the same side on a number of points, and will possibly disagree over just as many others. On this point (my getting riled with you), you have my apologies.

It just occurred to me that this whole "perception is reality" thing is being carried to the next level by some: that being, "perception is reality" is being equated with "truth" or "'wisdom." There is no correlation. I can say "My perception (and hence, my reality) is that I can gorge myself with arsenic-laced mushrooms until the cows come home." All well and good. But in that case, neither my perception OR my reality is based upon wisdom. If I follow that philosophy, then the only good that will come of it will be that DCP would be saved from any further inanities emanating from my mouth. Hey...take your victories where you can get them. And yes...I'm being slightly sarcastic with myself, not you.

Typical that Guardling and Seen-it-all would support the ‘perception is reality’ stance while someone is yelling horsehocky at me!!! :satisfied: Anyway, this has nothing to do with ‘wisdom’. A 'wise person' may perceive there is fire in a crowded movie house, that person may even react, behave, and believe there is a fire, but if the fire does not actually exist the ‘reality’ is vastly different than the ‘perception’. Moreover, if as you contend (that your perception is your reality and my perception is my reality, and you would rather not pretend that your views are definitively correct for all) then how can you teach children certain rules and regulations as being correct/incorrect for them; because, as you say, their reality is correct to them even if it contradicts your reality. Not only that, if you cannot or will not make definitive judgments, based on the belief that we make our own realities through our own perception and we must respect all of those perceptions as being their own individual reality, how dare anyone convict in the court of law anyone for adhering to their own ‘perception is reality’ belief structure when it contradicts someone elses own 'perception is rerality' belief structure.

Edited by Stu
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Every activity goes through slight change as time goes on..

While of course, true... I can think of no other youth competitive activity that has undergone the transformational ( or some more inclined to say " radical " ) changes than the Drum & Bugle Corps activity the last 50 years. These changes can hardly be deemed " slight ", especially compared with the changes in other genres, youth competitive activities. As a matter of fact, I can think of no other activity that has undergone more of a complete makeover than ours has. And regrettably, it has lost lots of once loyal fans in the myriad of the large wholesale changes process, and is stuggling mightily as a consequence to replace those fans with newer fans and at levels that will allow the activity to be considered a stable, prosperous, and growing one. But it is what it is, and so thats the reality of where we find ourselves at the present time.

Edited by BRASSO
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Congratulations, you have a Marching Band! It took a while but we are here now. Whew! :music:

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Pfft...

You are so "mid-western sardonic" it's not funny.

Welcome to the club.

:tounge2:

I've been told that. I'm trying to get better but I'm afraid it may be a lost cause.

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Nope. There is no sport in the world (that I know of anyway) that requires its athletes to perform live music while competing. There is an existing paradigm of athletes interpreting pre-recorded music, but that requires no actual demonstration of the ability to perform music. And yes, the demonstration of that ability does make a difference.

As for definitions, you brought up the term "art form." That could describe a great many things, including many widely accepted sports (or elements of sport), and including drum corps I guess. I referred to drum corps as a hybrid sort of thing because I really don't know how to classify it exactly. I certainly don't consider it a sport (because it's NOT), but I don't know that I consider it art either, as there is more going on that just musical performance. It is its own thing, and that's perfectly fine. It occupies several spheres in the Venn Diagram of competitive activities. There's room for athleticism. Room for musicality. Room for artistic expression. Room for competition. Better, in my opinion, than just sport, or just art.

American Idol. they compete and they sing. same for the voice, the singers on Americas got talent etc.

Edited by Jeff Ream
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Do Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Cambridge, et al, define "drum corps" as a sport? I'm having trouble even locating a definition in any of the "authoritative cultural sources," either online or in hard copy texts. The only definition I've found for "drum corps" was on a site called dictionary.com. It's not as prestigious in name as those others, but at least it had SOME kind of definition for "drum corps."

drum corps

-noun
a band, especially a marching band, of drum players usually under the direction of a drum major.
Origin:

1860–65, Americanism

I'll be the first to admit, dictionary.com is not something I would immediately run to in order to find the definition of a word, because it DOES lack that authoritative nature of the other sources you mention. And like anyone else, I laughed at their definition of drum corps because it so clearly does not fit in my mind as anything resembling what I've come to know about the activity. But after that laughter subsided, I had to ask...is anything that definition states untrue? It may have left many things out, but it hasn't really made any false statements. That's kind of the problem with running to the dictionary to solve these types of quandaries. You're so busy telling everyone the definition of sport, and band, and corps, and drum, and art, but certainly you have to realize that what truly matters here is the definition of DRUM CORPS. And you have yet to really define that term for anyone, at least by utilizing those great authoritative cultural sources we all hold in such high esteem. And for one simple reason. Those sources don't even (so far as I know) actually define drum corps.

But I think the larger point to be made here is that when it comes to the extrapolation of "truths" by (as you say) placing certain defined words in proper English syntax and language context, is that all you're proving is that you "consider" drum corps to be a sport. Just like I "consider" drum corps not to be a sport. Neither one of those statements is necessarily true, but considering the lack of those sources actually defining those terms for us the way we want them to, all we have left is to extrapolate their meaning in some other way, even if that sometimes means venturing outside the authoritative cultural texts of our time. In other words, whether those extrapolations are true or not becomes a matter of personal interpretation. That's what I've done and that's what you've done, only I'm willing to admit it and you're not.

For example, you've cited the highly competitive nature of drum corps as one of the reasons you think it's a sport. But not all drum corps compete. (The same could be said for marching bands, which you've also gone on record now as being a sport.) So do you believe a dictionary would even bother getting into the competitive aspect of the activity at all in their definition? Or would they just define what the group itself IS and not so much what it DOES (or can sometimes do)? I would imagine that no dictionary when defining something like drum corps or marching band would bother getting into matters such as the demographic make-up of membership, specific individual instrumentation, the seasonal nature of when groups tend to compete, or even that there is a competitive aspect to the activity to begin with. As silly as the dictionary.com definition of drum corps is, that's the kind of definition I would expect to see in ANY authoritative cultural source. It purposefully leaves specific things out in order to encapsulate the more broad-based essence of what something is, and it doesn't always take into consideration things the culture more or less agrees upon which lie outside of their authoritative scope. That makes it a terrific resource, as we all know, but it doesn't make it the end-all be-all.

I have one final thing I'll say on the subject and then I'll leave it to you to tell me how wrong I am by citing even more definitions of other terms without actually referencing any authoritative cultural definition of the one term that matters here, that being "drum corps." Many people here have gone back and forth now for a few pages trying to define drum corps in a variety of ways. There have been entire threads dedicated to this in the past as well, making up thousands upon thousands of words and thoughts and ideas. I think that's a good thing because I like drum corps and I like language. But one thing I'm reasonably certain of is that no matter how we see or define ourselves, or how we WANT to see or define ourselves, whether we "consider" drum corps to be a sport or not, the folks outside our little bubble of drum corps awesomeness will never really accept it as a sport. You know those folks. The culture. They've already spoken on the matter. And they didn't require any authoritative sources to tell them so.

Enjoy arguing with yourself. I'm going to eat some cookies. Maybe we all should. :bigsmile:

wow. i've seen many people go toe to toe with Stu before, but sir, you have raised yourself to the level of master debater

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a) Rules are required when an aspect of the activity is 'competition'. Take out the competitive nature and the rules can be replaced by guidelines or even completely eliminated.

b) I agree that the drum corps activity has over the years been unique (and I certainly am in the camp which wants the uniqueness of drum corps instrumentation to stay in-tact); but I also realize that while the level of performance still separates DCI from BOA, the DCI movers and shakers are moving the drum corps activity away from being unique and into the realm of being more and more homogenized with competitive high school marching band instrumentation.

c) While I am not going to go so far to state that I will walk away from DCI any time soon, I will state that as a ticket purchaser, not as a dinosaur old fart, but as a ticket purchaser I have no desire to see or hear any DCI corps, whether it is BD, Scouts, Genesis, or 7th Regiment, use the exact same instrumentation as Broken Arrow, L.D. Bell, or any other BOA high school. No matter how much better the 'quality' difference is, I have no real desire to buy a ticket and attend a souped-up BOA type atmosphere (other than going to support a youth I personally know who is involved, which is why I do not see me walking away any time soon).

d) As for a drum corps 'technically' being a marching band, again it falls into the same category of all sanctioned football games are sports but not all sports are sanctioned football games; and all drum corps, by definition and to the chagrin of some drum corps diehards, are marching bands but not all marching bands are drum corps. (this also applies to drum corps being art but not all art being drum corps, as well as the drum corps activity being a sport but not all sports activities are drum corps)

I hadn't read this post before. It's quite good.

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