garfield Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Because the level of the 1972 demand is so far less than the demands placed on the performers of today. We all agree that taking a 1972 MM (1974 for me) and dumping him into today's drum corps would embarrass the heck out of him in the context of demand, but it is also true that the 1972 style was the "state of the art" then, and tough for us to perform - maybe just as tough as it is for today's kids to perform what they do. Finally (not necessarily you, MikeD) the thread is beginning to come around to my original premise: "Simultaneous Demand" as envisioned on the sheets is mostly crap, IMO. Especially the drum sheets. BITD we did diagonal side-stepping through ranks, maybe not at 180 bpm, but we did them. Today, crabbing through ranks at 180 playing an incredibly difficult book is passe, now you have to bow and dip, and swing your legs around like so many ballerinas to meet the "simultaneous demand" requirements. Because the term has evolved as well as the talent. With the understanding, then, that simultaneous demand is ever-evolving even as talent does, how can it possibly be a consistent target to judge? It's not possible! As if, this year, snares aren't spinning plates with the right hand and playing modified flah-flahs with the left, they're not going to get much "SD" points. Especially if BD comes out spinning squirrels on the ends of their bass mallets. ("No animals were harmed in the production of this show") Seriously, where does it end? Are increasing ballet moves and inverted tenors, while spinning plates and holding tea-cups, the future of SD? Heck, why is it not sufficient to play an incredibly difficult book - by the most challenging of today's writers - with two sticks or mallets SIMULTANEOUSLY not enough to garner outstanding SD scores? Because, says me, the direction of judging rewards more emphasis on the VISUAL. Who needs pata-fla-flas when you've got spinning plates and dancing squirrels, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 That is not a proper comparison, as the colorguard is not the entire visual ensemble. Oh, I agree 1000%. The comparison I was trying to make was between two equally ridiculous hypotheticals that no corps in their right mind would seek to implement in their show. It's also the reason I think the 2001 Cavaliers example that has been repeatedly brought up in this thread holds no water. One, because there was still considerable percussive contributions being made by the pit during that part of the show (the same contributions that would have been made had the battery been marching in the drill and still remained tacet musically), and two, because the rest of the overall visual ensemble was more than picking up the slack for the 19 percussionists standing still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 "Simultaneous Demand" as envisioned on the sheets is mostly crap, IMO. Especially the drum sheets. BITD we did diagonal side-stepping through ranks, maybe not at 180 bpm, but we did them. Today, crabbing through ranks at 180 playing an incredibly difficult book is passe, now you have to bow and dip, and swing your legs around like so many ballerinas to meet the "simultaneous demand" requirements. Because the term has evolved as well as the talent. With the understanding, then, that simultaneous demand is ever-evolving even as talent does, how can it possibly be a consistent target to judge? It's not possible! As if, this year, snares aren't spinning plates with the right hand and playing modified flah-flahs with the left, they're not going to get much "SD" points. Especially if BD comes out spinning squirrels on the ends of their bass mallets. ("No animals were harmed in the production of this show") Seriously, where does it end? Are increasing ballet moves and inverted tenors, while spinning plates and holding tea-cups, the future of SD? Heck, why is it not sufficient to play an incredibly difficult book - by the most challenging of today's writers - with two sticks or mallets SIMULTANEOUSLY not enough to garner outstanding SD scores? Because, says me, the direction of judging rewards more emphasis on the VISUAL. Who needs pata-fla-flas when you've got spinning plates and dancing squirrels, eh? How can it be a consistent target to judge? Pretty simply, to be honest. There are a myriad of design possibilities for any given musical phrase: 1) stand still at attention and play 2) stand in a pose, but still in a formation, and play 3) stand in a pose, in a spread out scatter-type formation and play 4) march and play 5) do choreography and play 6) have some to one of the above, and some to another Obviously not all of these are the most appropriate for a music phrase, and what might be challenging for one line would be a piece of cake for another. Cadets marching percussion last year had insane quality of sound while also doing a lot of visual stuff: it was kind of a "well, we can stand still and play this really clean, lets try adding choreography to the phrase and make things more interesting + add more depth." It's all about depth, and adding various "levels" (for lack of a better word) to music. If you want to equate it to playing an instrumental phrase, there is articulation, dynamics, phrasing, stylistic type stuff, then unison, harmony, counter-melody, rhythmic support, counter-rhythmic support, adding color with specific instrument timbres etc, with each of those components adding depth to the orchestration. Adding visual components on top of all of that adds depth to the presentation, and also adds difficulty: groups are doing all of the music demands WHILE ALSO BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR VISUAL. I think that type of stuff is kind of newish to the activity, and there is still a LOT that can be added. For example, in WGI several years ago towards the end of the show the entire snare line formed a pyramid to play the last phrase: a bottom baseline, then three guys STOOD ON TOP OF the bottom line, two stood on top of them, and then the person on the top. Then they played the last phrase! Not only do you have an insane listening environment, but the crazy difficulty of a) standing literally on top of someone else while playing and b) having someone stand on top of you while you are playing. There are so many possibilities for visual enhancement we haven't seen on a DCI field. to say something like "Simultaneous Demand" as envisioned on the sheets is mostly crap, IMO seems to come from a place where you might not have a good understanding of exactly what simultaneous demand is (it's a LOT more than just "marching and playing fast"), and you may not have a good understanding of how that broad term is implemented and taken under consideration by judges. In DCI EVERYONE at the top plays lots of notes clean & musically w/good technique. Similarly everyone is marching fast. Groups who are looking for separation add MORE than just marching & playing, and SHOULD be credited for that simultaneous demand. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Backing into a blind set while others weave through you while playing would certainly be that. While we're on percussion, how about one of the things a group Jeff worked with did- 2 individual snare features spread 30 yards apart? And... you have to make that come together to the audience musically? What they played was quite challenging, but to play it that physically far apart side to side and also in depth was mind-boggling. thanks for reminding me why the hair is thinning 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass5 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I work the building industry and there is a term used for unnecessary "add ons" to projects that architects are famous for that add absolutely nothing to the project except cost and an ego boost to said architect - "fish ####" (breasts). It seems to me that there are more and more "fish ####" added to drum corps shows that add nothing to the show except little check marks on a judges sheet. Edited February 25, 2014 by bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 We all agree that taking a 1972 MM (1974 for me) and dumping him into today's drum corps would embarrass the heck out of him in the context of demand, but it is also true that the 1972 style was the "state of the art" then, and tough for us to perform - maybe just as tough as it is for today's kids to perform what they do. Finally (not necessarily you, MikeD) the thread is beginning to come around to my original premise: "Simultaneous Demand" as envisioned on the sheets is mostly crap, IMO. Especially the drum sheets. BITD we did diagonal side-stepping through ranks, maybe not at 180 bpm, but we did them. Today, crabbing through ranks at 180 playing an incredibly difficult book is passe, now you have to bow and dip, and swing your legs around like so many ballerinas to meet the "simultaneous demand" requirements. Because the term has evolved as well as the talent. With the understanding, then, that simultaneous demand is ever-evolving even as talent does, how can it possibly be a consistent target to judge? It's not possible! As if, this year, snares aren't spinning plates with the right hand and playing modified flah-flahs with the left, they're not going to get much "SD" points. Especially if BD comes out spinning squirrels on the ends of their bass mallets. ("No animals were harmed in the production of this show") Seriously, where does it end? Are increasing ballet moves and inverted tenors, while spinning plates and holding tea-cups, the future of SD? Heck, why is it not sufficient to play an incredibly difficult book - by the most challenging of today's writers - with two sticks or mallets SIMULTANEOUSLY not enough to garner outstanding SD scores? Because, says me, the direction of judging rewards more emphasis on the VISUAL. Who needs pata-fla-flas when you've got spinning plates and dancing squirrels, eh? it's true, visual demands have encroached upon musical design. The things required to do visually to get the # do come into play when putting beats on the paper. But...and I think this is a seriously underlying theme is.....everybody does the same sets of moves body wise. Every drum break looks the same. the same twists, turns, ankle moves, leg moves, etc etc...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingusmonk Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 it's true, visual demands have encroached upon musical design. The things required to do visually to get the # do come into play when putting beats on the paper. But...and I think this is a seriously underlying theme is.....everybody does the same sets of moves body wise. Every drum break looks the same. the same twists, turns, ankle moves, leg moves, etc etc...... But every now and then, somebody has the fortitude to take it to the next level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No one except Crown (who seems to have originated it) should ever do the utterly meaningless "bug squish" movement again ... and even they should use it sparingly. In this viewer's opinion, it adds nothing; it's far less effective than, e.g., Phantom's kick halt (which they likewise must be careful not to overdo). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowtown Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I work the building industry and there is a term used for unnecessary "add ons" to projects that architects are famous for that add absolutely nothing to the project except cost and an ego boost to said architect - "fish ####" (breasts). It seems to me that there are more and more "fish ####" added to drum corps shows that add nothing to the show except little check marks on a judges sheet. Pretty much Simultaneous demand is a way for worn out designers that have stuck around well past their expiration date to grab points while continuing to pump out shows that lack the most basic GE because they have their head stuck up their ‘high art’ concept Simultaneous demand is really a misnomer in this activity, it’s sort of a balanced equation that’s being going on for a long time….to do this, you give up a little of that. I saw a snare cam run through from a top line recently and was struck at how little meat and playing was in the book yet they did boogie and strut a lot. Oh and the hands? Don’t get me started on the slop…my impression is it’s easier to hack through a bad dance with a drum than to clean difficult parts. I really hate that tenor snare split that tried to hide the dirt on a feature while standing still, I know todays lines are scared and I’m calling you out and that bass drum clip, does nothing for me....nothing...folks please don't look behind the curtians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 But...and I think this is a seriously underlying theme is.....everybody does the same sets of moves body wise. Every drum break looks the same. the same twists, turns, ankle moves, leg moves, etc etc...... Minus the hyperbole, I agree with this. The top groups often have some amazing visual ideas & choreography, but the lower you go on the competitive spectrum the less imaginative it gets and things start to feel mundane. But like everything, writing off the entire idea of body sculpting/choreography for brass/percussion because of the worst offenders is flat-out stupid when you have the best of the best doing really cool stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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