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Should judging be flat?


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That may have etched them into the audience's hearts, but it did not win them the title. As can be seen by the score recap. They were 3rd in Vis Performance, 4th in Guard, tied for 2nd in GE Vis almost half a point down. But 1st by a huge margin in overall music and GE Music. That is why they won. Numbers don't lie.

Oh but you have to look at the seasonal progresssion of caption scores to see where they got the points needed by Championships week.Phantom was strong muscially almost from right out of the gate in 2008. It was the closing of the gap on the VIsual side however that put them over the top. If you don't think the staffs having the VISUAL change of having the DM slain ( symbolically ) on the podium by a single Guard performer didn't do more than anything they did in Brass and Percussion practice that week, then I really don't know what further to say to you regarding the weight of the Guard and the Visual these days.

Edited by BRASSO
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Oh but you have to look at the seasonal progresssion of caption scores to see where they got the points needed by Championships week.Phantom was strong muscially almost from right out of the gate in 2008. It was the closing of the gap on the VIsual side however that put them over the top. If you don't think the staffs having the VISUAL change of having the DM slain on the podium by a Guard didn't do more than anything they did in Brass and Percussion practice that week, then I really don't know what further to say to you regarding the weight of the Guard and the Visual these days.

I did do some checking on that, and while they did improve their GE Vis score over the course of the season, they stayed in just about the same place in the Visual captions, and didn't budge in the Guard caption. They did actually experience a big jump in GE Music between San Antonio and Atlanta that carried them through the back end of the season. They also stayed behind BD and Cavies from Atlanta to Finals, tying with Cavies in Atlanta and at Finals in GE Vis.

Of course, the visual side of a show is going to improve the most over the course of a season, since that's the part you can add to and clean the most. Most musical books reach a certain point where they don't clean anymore, and the performance gets more consistent. But drill and guard work can be cleaned all the way until Finals.

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I did do some checking on that, and while they did improve their GE Vis score over the course of the season, they stayed in just about the same place in the Visual captions, and didn't budge in the Guard caption. They did actually experience a big jump in GE Music between San Antonio and Atlanta that carried them through the back end of the season. They also stayed behind BD and Cavies from Atlanta to Finals, tying with Cavies in Atlanta and at Finals in GE Vis.

Of course, the visual side of a show is going to improve the most over the course of a season, since that's the part you can add to and clean the most. Most musical books reach a certain point where they don't clean anymore, and the performance gets more consistent. But drill and guard work can be cleaned all the way until Finals.

No need to try and explain yourself. You were right the first time. The only thing that matters on finals night is what happens on finals night. Content of shows get changed during the course of a season, you face different competition at different shows quite often (whose shows are also evolving and changing), and of course the quality of the overall performance improves over time as well. And as you said, on that night, they were 3rd in Vis Performance, 4th in Guard, tied for 2nd in GE Vis almost half a point down, but 1st by a huge margin in overall music and GE Music. That indeed IS why they won that night. Like you said, the numbers don't lie.

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I did do some checking on that, and while they did improve their GE Vis score over the course of the season, .

They sure did. Phantom finished 5th in GE Visual at the Southwest Regional Finals, over a point behind the Blue Devils in GE Visual alone, and who came in 1st and also first in GE Visual that show. With the VISUAL changes, by DCI Finals Night ,Phantom finished 2nd in GE Visual and had cut the deficit with BD in this caption by almost triple from before the Visual change. You are right that" the numbers don't lie", especially when we step back and look at the progression of scores in the captions throughout the season, what changes were made, and how those changes impacted what occured by Championships. Phantom Regiment won their 2008 Title and it was principally what the staff did in the VISUAL area with a single solitary GUARD member that closed the previous big gap they had with BD in the General Effect Visual Caption and which ultimately put them over the top by Finals. Thats it in a nutshell.. but of course folks here are certainly entitled to assess what principally did it for Phantom in 2008 differently too. No big deal, I don't care.

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They sure did. Phantom finished 5th in GE Visual at the Southwest Regional Finals, over a point behind the Blue Devils in GE Visual alone, and who came in 1st and also first in GE Visual that show. With the VISUAL changes, by DCI Finals Night ,Phantom finished 2nd in GE Visual and had cut the deficit with BD in this caption by almost triple from before the Visual change.

Except for the fact hat over the last three weeks of the season, they gained .7 on BD, still ending up .35 behind them at Finals. In GE Music, they shot up .9, ending up .3 above BD. Therefore, their jump in MUSIC did more for their winning than their visual changes. Numbers don't lie. They also gained .2 in brass, and .45 in percussion between San Antonio and Finals.

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, their jump in MUSIC did more for their winning than their visual changes. Numbers don't lie. They also gained .2 in brass, and .45 in percussion between San Antonio and Finals.

Numbers don't lie, you are correct in this part. The .2 tenths gained in brass and .45 gained in percussion is dwarfed by the gain of over a point they shaved off the gap Phantom had with BD at San Anton in GE Visual caption by Finals Night. Look, I can sense that you remain unpersuasive that Guard and Visual have more weight today on the judging sheets than Brass/ Percussion... and that the VISUAL Changes by the Phantom staff between San Anton and Championships in 2008 with the solitary Guard member, that closed the gap by over a point in GE Visual was somehow inconsequential to what catapulted them over the top by Finals. Its ok. I made my case for why it was so. You made your case why it wasn't. I'm done on this topic now. Have a good night.

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Numbers don't lie, you are correct in this part. The .2 tenths gained in brass and .45 gained in percussion is dwarfed by the gain of over a point they shaved off the gap Phantom had with BD at San Anton in GE Visual caption by Finals Night. Look, I can sense that you remain unpersuasive that Guard and Visual have more weight today on the judging sheets than Brass/ Percussion... and that the VISUAL Changes by the Phantom staff between San Anton and Championships in 2008 with the solitary Guard member, that closed the gap by over a point in GE Visual was somehow inconsequential to what catapulted them over the top by Finals. Its ok. I made my case for why it was so. You made your case why it wasn't. I'm done on this topic now. Have a good night.

You keep selectively cutting my posts. The amount they gained in GE visual was .7. In GE music, they made up .9, which means that any musical changes they made to their show made a bigger impact than any visual changes that they made. That's the simplicity of the numbers.

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Your reply is flawed. Most of the Guard sections utilize Guard equipment other than rifles as their majority Guard equipment utilized in their shows ..... not rifles.

More pertinent however, is that we are referring to an entire section ( sans the pit ) remaining " MOTIONLESS ".... not " moving a muscle" for a quarter of the show. No movement.. not even a step, left, right, nor forward, nor back. Yet such motionless, non playing in a section of Corps for a quarter of the show can STILL lead to a DCI Title ( as pointed out, it has been done )... but that section can not be Guard. This is because it is the Guard and the Visual that drive home the theme more than any other, and what principally drives the most points that can be had on the current judging sheets. It was a VISUAL change that drove home the extra few tenths needed for Phantom Regiment to secure the DCI title for themselves the last week of the summer season in 2008, lest we forget ( not principally a Brass, Percussion, etc last week of season change. ).

If the battery was motionless for the time you stated (and I believe you that they were), than they were not contributing to the visual performance of the corps either, so this statement can't be true. They were not providing ANY performance-related benefit at that point, be it musical or visual. However, there WAS percussion performance still happening, since the front ensemble was playing.

As for the Regiment visual change to add a few tenths...OK. Corps make changes all season long, in visual and music. A good visual change can help make the music sound and sell better, so I am not sure how that is a 'gotcha' moment as you seem to be asserting.

Plus, do you know there were no tweaks to the percussion or brass books during that time? I recall sitting on the grass at DCI East when Regiment was in a horn arc rehearsing the ending of one of the tunes in the Gershwin show, and right on the spot the horn staff was tweaking the final chord of the piece, moving the lower brass up in the chord structure during that final note to make the sound brighter and louder for the final impact. It was a small thing they did on the fly, and unless you were sitting there listening to the staff make the change and test it out, it was probably not all that noticable later on in and of itself, but it really made an improvement in the finale if you were listening to them play it both ways in the horn arc.

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