Should judging be flat?

[BRASSO]

That's silly, and obviously that's never happened

This is where DCP CAN be a force for education for those that allow themselves to be educated.. or to let go of previously held inaccurate beliefs when new information is provided to them that compels them to give up their inaccurate beliefs when its pointed out to them in a compelling and verifiable way.

For example. In 2001 The Cavaliers had an outstandingly creative Visual show entitled " Four Corners ". It won DCI that year. Its Percussion line ( a good one ) did not play for approvx. 25% of the show. The good thing about my comment for persuasive reasons for the uninitiated is that this is verifiable and can be reached as a conclusion quite appart from my comments. but reached by one's own observations by doing their own research on this. For futher illustration, one can go to DCI 's Fan Network and view the show from the 3.35 minute mark to the 6.30 minute mark. We can see for ourselves that the percussion line is positioned during this timeframe of the show in the far right field position, with their backs to the audience, and they do not play, nor do they move a muscle. The competition time for them was 12.04. So do the math. Now that this has been established as verifiable evidence that the DCI Corps percussion section does not move for approx. 25 % of the that years DCI Title winning show.. we ask ourselves is it possible that a Corps could win a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ?. If our answer to this qustion is " no " then our natural conclusion to this exercise is the acceptance of the reality that the Visual and the Guard ARE indeed weighted more strongly on the current modern DCI judging captions than the Percussion and the Brass. ( which is what I've been saying all along )

Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

well....i do not think musical considerations are taken by visual judges the way visual considerations are taking by musical judges. if you're judging music and you don't mention all of the visual demands, you get crucified. But rarely if ever do you hear a visual judge point out musical demands to say maybe why someone blew a form etc. In listening to some drum tapes last year, at times up to 40% of the commentary was related to visual demands

After hearing some visual-oriented people try and talk about music in some of the Overall Effect tapes our band receives...I'm more than happy not to have them try.

[MikeD]

Your theory of equal distribution of the captions only holds if there was an equal distribution of marcher sections on the field. But with brass having between 68- 80 brass being judged, and 35 or so in guard being judged, its clear that a single Guard person has more weight on the field than say a trumpet player does. Plus, we ask that trumpet player to do lots and lots of visuals along with that guard marcher. But we do not ask that Guard marcher to play the trumpet. So of course you are incorrect that the Visuals and Guard do not play more of a role in the current sheets than the brass and the percussion. I used an example above of a DCI Corps that won a DCI Title a few years back where the entire percussion section ( minus the pit ) did not play nor move a muscle for 25% of the timed competition. I'd be more than happy to set aside my belief that Guard and Visual predominate on the current sheets if you can point out to us any Corps the last 2 decades that has won a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for a full quarter of of their DCI winning show with the Judges. The floor is yours.

Guard has a caption of its own. So does percussion. So if the pit was playing through the section you noted, you are not comparing apples to apples in your request. The pit is also percussion, so it was not a percussion tacet at all.

[CCorps]

This is where DCP CAN be a force for education for those that allow themselves to be educated.. or to let go of previously held inaccurate beliefs when new information is provided to them that compels them to give up their inaccurate beliefs when its pointed out to them in a compelling and verifiable way.

For example. In 2001 The Cavaliers had an outstandingly creative Visual show entitled " Four Corners ". It won DCI that year. Its Percussion line ( a good one ) did not play for approvx. 25% of the show. The good thing about my comment for persuasive reasons for the uninitiated is that this is verifiable and can be reached as a conclusion quite appart from my comments. but reached by one's own observations by doing their own research on this. For futher illustration, one can go to DCI 's Fan Network and view the show from the 3.35 minute mark to the 6.30 minute mark. We can see for ourselves that the percussion line is positioned during this timeframe of the show in the far right field position, with their backs to the audience, and they do not play, nor do they move a muscle. The competition time for them was 12.04. So do the math. Now that this has been established as verifiable evidence that the DCI Corps percussion section does not move for approx. 25 % of the that years DCI Title winning show.. we ask ourselves is it possible that a Corps could win a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ?. If our answer to this qustion is " no " then our natural conclusion to this exercise is the acceptance of the reality that the Visual and the Guard are weighted more strongly on the current modern DCI judging captions than the Percussion and the Brass. ( which is what I've been saying all along )

The battery represents a smaller percentage of the corps than the guard. True or false?

If their set-up was...8-4-5 then that's a total of 17 members. I bet you can find a show where the total down-time for 17 members equals or eclipses 25%.

On top of that, you'll not likely find it nowadays because no corps member is allowed to stand still. There must be visual emphasis at every moment, whether moving or not.

Had "Four Corners" been performed in 2013, the battery would not have simply stood against the sideline. True or false?

Let's not even use the logic that the battery is less than half of the percussion ensemble. If the pit writing was dense enough and being performed well enough (where battery support was nonsensical), then the percussion section wasn't tacit and your argument isn't grounded.

Your example only works if you believe the percussion ensemble is primarily the battery. And if you believe that, it's likely that you'll also support the idea that visual is MUCH stronger than music.

In the end, I concur with your viewpoint. But your reasoning is...tenuous at best.

Edited February 24, 2014 by CCorps

[Slingerland]

If visual demand is considered on the percussion sheets (and it is) then clearly the visual elements are considered at every level.

As for percentages, you could consider that there are between 110 and 120 performers in a WC corps who are there primarily as musicians (a kid who can play well but only march adequately will be taken by most corps, since they'll work to improve his marching, but a kid who marches like a sonofab___ but can't play well generally won't - yes?)

So if 70-80% of the members are there to play music, shouldn't that be considered in weighting the scores?

Edited February 24, 2014 by Slingerland

[fsubone]

I'd like to see a ballad in which the percussion section does all the playing and the horn line is tacet. Talk about something completely different.

You mean like SCV's "Castle on a Cloud" from last year? All pit, and no one else. Beautifully done moment

[CCorps]

If visual demand is considered on the percussion sheets (and it is) then clearly the visual elements are considered at every level.

As for percentages, you could consider that there are between 110 and 120 performers in a WC corps who are there primarily as musicians (a kid who can play well but only march adequately will be taken by most corps, since they'll work to improve his marching, but a kid who marches like a sonofab___ but can't play well generally won't - yes?)

So if 70-80% of the members are there to play music, shouldn't that be considered in weighting the scores?

That 70-80% is ALSO there to be a part of the visual production WHILE playing music. It's 50% of their job to perform, 50% of their job to play music. Ergo, that 70-80% figure has to double-dip.

[BRASSO]

Guard has a caption of its own. So does percussion. So if the pit was playing through the section you noted, you are not comparing apples to apples in your request. The pit is also percussion, so it was not a percussion tacet at all.

We'll try again. Now that it has been established that a Corps can win a DCI Title with its Percussion line not moving a muscle during approx. a quarter of the entire show, do you honestly believe that a Corps could win a DCI Title these days if the GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ? You seem like a very bright guy MikeD, and like me have been around the block once or twice. So you know that it would be impossible for a current Corps to win a DCI TIitle if its GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show. I mean, you have to be honest with yourself here.

[Jeff Ream]

This is where DCP CAN be a force for education for those that allow themselves to be educated.. or to let go of previously held inaccurate beliefs when new information is provided to them that compels them to give up their inaccurate beliefs when its pointed out to them in a compelling and verifiable way.

For example. In 2001 The Cavaliers had an outstandingly creative Visual show entitled " Four Corners ". It won DCI that year. Its Percussion line ( a good one ) did not play for approvx. 25% of the show. The good thing about my comment for persuasive reasons for the uninitiated is that this is verifiable and can be reached as a conclusion quite appart from my comments. but reached by one's own observations by doing their own research on this. For futher illustration, one can go to DCI 's Fan Network and view the show from the 3.35 minute mark to the 6.30 minute mark. We can see for ourselves that the percussion line is positioned during this timeframe of the show in the far right field position, with their backs to the audience, and they do not play, nor do they move a muscle. The competition time for them was 12.04. So do the math. Now that this has been established as verifiable evidence that the DCI Corps percussion section does not move for approx. 25 % of the that years DCI Title winning show.. we ask ourselves is it possible that a Corps could win a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ?. If our answer to this qustion is " no " then our natural conclusion to this exercise is the acceptance of the reality that the Visual and the Guard ARE indeed weighted more strongly on the current modern DCI judging captions than the Percussion and the Brass. ( which is what I've been saying all along )

ok...now quick...

how much downtime did the first sops have? 2nd sops? 3rds? lead mellos? 2nds? lead baris? 2nds? 3rds?

it goes both ways

[fsubone]

We'll try again. Now that it has been established that a Corps can win a DCI Title with its Percussion line not moving a muscle during approx. a quarter of the entire show, do you honestly believe that a Corps could win a DCI Title these days if the GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ? You seem like a very bright guy MikeD, and like me have been around the block once or twice. So you know that it would be impossible for a current Corps to win a DCI TIitle if its GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show. I mean, you have to be honest with yourself here.

If a corps could write a visual/musical segment of their show where the guard would not enhance it in any way, sure. Most corps go without the drums playing in a ballad because it wouldn't add anything. Need I bring up the ride cymbal from Phantom '89? Rarely you'll get cool moments with the drumline playing during a ballad, Cadets 2002 and 2005 come to mind there. But most of the time having the drummers ram notes wouldn't add anything, and the pit can accompany the brass just fine.