CCorps Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 We'll try again. Now that it has been established that a Corps can win a DCI Title with its Percussion line not moving a muscle during approx. a quarter of the entire show, do you honestly believe that a Corps could win a DCI Title these days if the GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ? You seem like a very bright guy MikeD, and like me have been around the block once or twice. So you know that it would be impossible for a current Corps to win a DCI TIitle if its GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show. I mean, you have to be honest with yourself here. The battery represents a smaller percentage of the corps than the guard. True or false? If their set-up was...8-4-5 then that's a total of 17 members. I bet you can find a show where the total down-time for 17 members equals or eclipses 25%. On top of that, you'll not likely find it nowadays because no corps member is allowed to stand still. There must be visual emphasis at every moment, whether moving or not. Had "Four Corners" been performed in 2013, the battery would not have simply stood against the sideline. True or false? Let's not even use the logic that the battery is less than half of the percussion ensemble. If the pit writing was dense enough and being performed well enough (where battery support was nonsensical), then the percussion section wasn't tacit and your argument isn't grounded. Your example only works if you believe the percussion ensemble is primarily the battery. And if you believe that, it's likely that you'll also support the idea that visual is MUCH stronger than music. In the end, I concur with your viewpoint. But your reasoning is...tenuous at best. Try these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 . Had "Four Corners" been performed in 2013, the battery would not have simply stood against the sideline. True or false? I have no reason to see why not, as the judging sytem utilized in 2001 for their winning Title has not fundamentally changed in these intervening years to make this an impossible outcome. Had the The Cavaliers adopted a show design for 2001 that called for the GUARD to not move a muscle for a quarter of the show they would not have finished in the top 6 in 2001, no matter how well they performed in brass and percussion. And that holds true today as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I see it as more of an issue that that to be honest. I see judges afraid to put the achievement number higher than the content number. and, IMO, in several cases the last few years, it's been warranted. Honestly, the best fix is to weight each box ala WGI in the A Class guard world, or percussion in the music caption. For the A Class, content is multiplied by .7, performance/achievement is multipled by 1.3. The judges still uses 0-100 to determine their numbers, and the multipliers create the spreads. it takes some of the sting away from those judges that just tenth everyone from each other. Some of the tight music spreads are this, Jeff- With the exception of percussion at least in the band activity- Most top end groups are very capable musically, they know how to play, they're very well taught and quite musical. The better bands also tend to have the same displayed out of their percussion as well, especially the musicality aspect. The real differences at times are whether the organization can actually march/perform visually, or has a solid visual design package. That's where the separation can take place, and should if both organizations can play well. As for the performance number exceeding content, I do know statistically it probably doesn't happen often enough in any aspect of the activity, DCI, DCA, Joe and Phil's Marching Band Extravaganza Circuit of Coolness, you name it. Maybe 5 percent of the time the last I know anyone actually did a statistical analysis of it. I have thoughts as to why it doesn't happen often, but I got to go eat before work and I type too slow. Edited February 24, 2014 by BigW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) ok...now quick... how much downtime did the first sops have? 2nd sops? 3rds? lead mellos? 2nds? lead baris? 2nds? 3rds? it goes both ways No it doesn't. The DCI winning Corps has never had the last 30 years a GUARD entire section that has not moved at all in a quarter of show. We are not talking moments in each subsection section where there are breaks in the playing. We are referring to a entire Corps section.... over 30 members... not playing nor moving for approx. a quarter of the show and at the same time, not playing NOR moving. ( and I liked Cavs, 2001, by the way.. just making the point on the Visual/ Guard weighted more heavily over the Brass and Percussion). Now I'll grant people that this was not always the case. Corps once had Guards ( in particular the Honor Section ) that pretty much did not move at all during most of the entire show.. but the Corps brass and drumlines were weighted WAY more than the Color Guards BITD... but thats no longer true of course. Today, WGI has had an enormous effect that have shifted the current judging system point allotments in the build up judging system much more toward the Guard and the Visual and away from the Percussion and the Brass sections playing. It seems pretty obvious to me anyway. Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 After hearing some visual-oriented people try and talk about music in some of the Overall Effect tapes our band receives...I'm more than happy not to have them try. quite honestly, some music people shouldn't do the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 quite honestly, some music people shouldn't do the same The problem is at times they're forced to. The issue is verbage- sometimes, for instance in Effect-, just saying you appreciate the coordination shown is enough or saying you appreciate how the musicality of the guard supports the musical effort. It's when some people try and explain why or try and get deeper than they should is when it gets goofy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 That 70-80% is ALSO there to be a part of the visual production WHILE playing music. It's 50% of their job to perform, 50% of their job to play music. Ergo, that 70-80% figure has to double-dip. actually performing is moving and music playing music, either at the same time or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) If a corps could write a visual/musical segment of their show where the guard would not enhance it in any way, sure. You are only kidding yourself however if you believe that a Guard could stand at attention along the back sideline, with their backs to the audience, for approx. a quarter of the show, not move a muscle, and still win a DCI Title. Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 We'll try again. Now that it has been established that a Corps can win a DCI Title with its Percussion line not moving a muscle during approx. a quarter of the entire show, do you honestly believe that a Corps could win a DCI Title these days if the GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show ? You seem like a very bright guy MikeD, and like me have been around the block once or twice. So you know that it would be impossible for a current Corps to win a DCI TIitle if its GUARD did not move a muscle for approx. a quarter of the show. I mean, you have to be honest with yourself here. Well, "today" I doubt it could happen the same way it did a dozen years ago, either. I don't think you could park any group that large that long and not get commented on...negatively. Now...that would be visual comments, not percussion. The discussion does make me wonder if the new percussion judge might have an impact on something like that happening today, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamMan Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Visual and Guard drive the scores and placements ( more than the Brass and Drums ), as the sheets reward this more. This is exactly what is wrong with Drum Corps & the reason that so many fans have left the activity. What made the Drum & Bugle Corps activity popular was the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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