Jeff Ream Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 No it doesn't. The DCI winning Corps has never had the last 30 years a GUARD entire section that has not moved at all in a quarter of show. We are not talking moments in each subsection section where there are breaks in the playing. We are referring to a entire Corps section.... over 30 members... not playing nor moving for approx. a quarter of the show and at the same time, not playing NOR moving. ( and I liked Cavs, 2001, by the way.. just making the point on the Visual/ Guard weighted more heavily over the Brass and Percussion). Now I'll grant people that this was not always the case. Corps once had Guards ( in particular the Honor Section ) that pretty much did not move at all during most of the entire show.. but the Corps brass and drumlines were weighted WAY more than the Color Guards BITD... but thats no longer true of course. Today, WGI has had an enormous effect that have shifted the current judging system point allotments in the build up judging system much more toward the Guard and the Visual and away from the Percussion and the Brass sections playing. It seems pretty obvious to me anyway. Yes, it does. if you want one voice to play all of the time, then all voices need to do it. There have been threads on here where people took the time to time how much certain voices play, and they had LESS time actually playing than the example you keep crying about. You do realize the guard is part of the 3 sheets right? Well, percussion is part of the 3 music sheets as well...and both have their own caption, as does brass. I love a good beefy book as much as anyone, but battery in that piece would have ruined the moment musically...and...with the percussion in a corner...you know part of the show title and concept...by geez louise, they had audio visual coordination. IMO, the issue with visual and demand is less to do with guard, and more to do with how much music captions have to blow loads into their tapes about visual demands, and outside of GE, none of the visual judges give two ##### about music demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) This is exactly what is wrong with Drum Corps & the reason that so many fans have left the activity. What made the Drum & Bugle Corps activity popular was the music. The dots that I'm creating for people on the weighted system of the Visual and the Guard can likewise be found by sticking with The Cavaliers corps for a moment for futher illustration... The Cavs trump card was their Visual and Guard a decade or so ago . When they lost their VISUAL designer after the 2011 season they took a one year nose dive. It wasn't so much the loss of Brass, Percusion staff and marchers. It is my belief that had they retained Gaines, ( Visual ) but lost a brass arranger or percussion caption head or whatever, they would not have fallen so far, so quickly on the judging sheets. They were an experienced Corps.. filled with Vets in 2012. They didn''t forget how to march and play. Nobody here believes that the Cavs that finished 8th in 2012 were less talented, or worked less harder than the 2011 Cavs Corps that finished 3rd.. or the 2010 Cavs Corps that finished 2nd ? Or do they ? If we believe that the marchers were just as talented, worked just has hard in 2012 as in 2011, 2010, then we ask oursleves.. " what changed ? " If our answer to that question is " the Visual Show Designer" as the biggest loss, then we have even FURTHER illustration of just how important the Visual is on the current DCI Judging sheets. Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Wouldn't the more appropriate comparison be between the pit and the color guard? I mean, the pit's sole purpose is to provide some kind of musical performance basically throughout the entire show. There may be a moment or two when the contribution is minimal, but more or less, they are offering some kind of musical contribution to the overall performance throughout. Similarly, the color guard's sole purpose is to provide some kind of visual performance basically throughout the entire show. There may be a moment or two when the contribution is minimal, but more or less, they are offering some kind of visual contribution to the overall performance throughout. When it comes to the battery and the hornline, they are there to offer both visual and musical contributions throughout the show, but not always at the same time, not always with all of their performers contributing at once, and sometimes not at all (a hornline tacet during percussion features or vice versa). If the 2001 Cavaliers battery stood still for 25% of the show and offered nothing but a frame or backdrop for the rest of the drill, well at least there was still percussive contributions to the show being made by the pit (no different musically than if the battery had been moving in the drill and still not playing). Furthermore, whatever visual slack in the overall visual presentation was more than picked up by the rest of the overall visual ensemble, especially in this case when you consider the "four corners" aspect of the overall theme in the show. If one couldn't imagine a color guard not moving a muscle for 25% of the show, my question would be...why would a color guard even bother to do something like that when their sole purpose to the overall product is visual in nature? Just like I couldn't imagine a pit (whose sole purpose is musical in nature) just standing there for 25% of the show with none of them playing a single note. Point: when the 2001 Cavaliers battery stood still, there was still plenty of visual and percussive musical contributions being made to the overall performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seen-it-all Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) The dots that I'm creating for people on the weighted system of the Visual and the Guard can likewise be found by sticking with The Cavaliers corps for a moment for futher illustration... The Cavs trump card was their Visual and Guard a decade or so ago . When they lost their VISUAL designer after the 2011 season they took a one year nose dive. It wasn't so much the loss of Brass, Percusion staff and marchers. It is my belief that had they retained Gaines, ( Visual ) but lost a brass arranger or percussion caption head or whatever, they would not have fallen so far, so quickly on the judging sheets. They were an experienced Corps.. filled with Vets in 2012. They didn''t forget how to march and play. Nobody here believes that the Cavs that finished 8th in 2012 were less talented, or worked less harder than the 2011 Cavs Corps that finished 3rd.. or the 2010 Cavs Corps that finished 2nd ? Or do they ? If we believe that the marchers were just as talented, worked just has hard in 2012 as in 2011, 2010, then we ask oursleves.. " what changed ? " If our answer to that question is " the Visual Show Designer" as the biggest loss, then we have even further illustration of how important the VISUAL is on the current DCI Judging sheets. Didn't they also lose their musical arranger(s)? As well as their corps director? Wouldn't you think those also played somewhat of a considerable role? As for music contributions during their winning years, they won GE music in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2006. (did not win GE visual in either 2000 or 2006) They also won music ensemble in 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2006. Say what you will about the quality of the arrangements, this was still a really fine musical ensemble and not just an all-visual one trick pony. Edited February 24, 2014 by seen-it-all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) IMO, the issue with visual and demand is less to do with guard, and more to do with how much music captions have to blow loads into their tapes about visual demands, and outside of GE, none of the visual judges give two ##### about music demand. No Guard can stand at attention with their backs to the audience for approx. a quarter of the show and win a DCI Title with the current sheets.. no matter how well the brass line played, Percussion line played and both these sections moved well visually.. If others on here think so, they are of course entitled to that opinion. As for the Visual judges not caring much about music demand, you have touched on another salient and correct point here, imo. Lets face it, many of the Visual judges came out of the Guard world, not the Music world. As such, while they know the Guard and the Visual side very well, some of them couldn't tell you anything at all about the Music Demand as some never played a musical instrument in their life. So naturally thats like the 3rd rail in the underground subways to them, ie don't touch that as its best avoided if you don't want to get zapped. Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You are only kidding yourself however if you believe that a Guard could stand at attention along the back sideline, with their backs to the audience, for approx. a quarter of the show, not move a muscle, and still win a DCI Title. Why not? The color guard is there to enhance the visual program. If a corps could script and design a visual section that required no color guard to be added to it, why could they not win if the guard participated in the rest of the show? Since the battery is a musical ensemble as well as a visual component, their participation is not needed for the entire show. BD did the same thing in 2008. Watch the drums on the back sideline during the ballad. I think you just like proposing hypothetical situations with no answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Didn't they also lose their musical arranger(s)? As well as their corps director? Wouldn't you think those also played somewhat of a considerable role? Yes, and from what I've heard from members, there was a huge amount of turnover that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I'd like to hear some examples of "simultaneous demand". I know what it means, or is supposed to mean, but I'd like to hear some examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I wonder... If DCI is moving into the band world, why are they not using the band sheets (BOA, USBands, OMEA, whatever). After all, if adding bones and souzas eases the transition for kids from HS to corps, wouldn't working off the same sheets ease them in even more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 And I still wonder about OMEA, and the other state orgs that look down their noses at music "competition" and ranking because of today's PC, "every kid is a winner" mentality. Is the "Rating Only" judging scheme in DCI's future to ease the kids' transition from HS to corps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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