All animals are equal (but some are more equal than others)

[mingusmonk]

Idiomatic? Since when did that become the standard? Ninety-five percent of all music ever performed by a drum and bugle corps was not composed for drum and bugle corps. Even Sousa wrote woodwinds into his marches.

One of the foundational, defining ideas of drum corps is that it adapts music to its own, unique setting. The examples are endless, and they are the whole point of the enterprise. Imagine a world in which SCV had never put Simple Gifts into an 80-horn company front. It's a world I prefer not to imagine. Imagine if Dennis DeLucia had never adapted Black Market Juggler for his drum line. Imagine if Wayne Downey had heard Chicago play "Free," and decided, nah. Imagine if the Madison Scouts had not adapted Concerto For Guitar and Jazz Orchestra for brass and percussion. Imagine if the Garfield Cadets had not taken Rocky Point Holiday, a piece written for a wind ensemble, and turned it into a pivot point for the entire drum and bugle corps activity.These are musical/visual moments that form the very DNA of drum and bugle corps. They are the crown jewels, the exemplars of the craft. And our judges are wringing their hands over idiom?

This concept is not unique to drum corps. It is universal to art. The origins of jazz are in spiritual song. Literary romanticism owes much to knowledge about human psychology. Elements of modern art can be traced to earlier periods. Today's pop-music superstars are DJs who can masterfully mix samples of just about any music you can think of. The Manhattan Transfer adapts all forms of music to 4-part harmony. The world of art is a huge mashup.

But note: the blending of ingredients is not done in one universal pot. Hip-hop is still hip-hop; just because there's a sample of Gladys Knight looping around in there doesn't mean the Pips are up there on stage with the DJ. Just because jazz is an outgrowth of gospel music doesn't mean Count Basie put a church choir on stage with his band. And just because the 27th Lancer's played "Danny Boy" doesn't mean they dragged a drunken tenor out onto the field to sing into a microphone. Without boundaries to define the form, it all becomes undefined noise. Any artist knows a much. Ansel Adams' photographs were defined as much by what he left out as what he let in. Every schoolkid knows that an essay needs a topic sentence to provide focus and clarity to the composition. All art has boundaries. The NY Philharmonic may play a program of show tunes, but it's still a philharmonic orchestra with all the instrumentation that implies -- and none of the instrumentation that it doesn't. And that's why people will buy tickets to the phil: to see an orchestra play show tunes. God help Garth Brooks if he ever brings Zamfir on stage with him.

If we're going to start worrying whether the instrumentation in DCI is true enough to the composer's original vision, then Blue Knights might as well drop their horns and learn to pick if they're ever going to play Pat Metheny again. Troopers need to start taking vocal lessons, because "Battle Hymn of the Republic" is a spiritual. Phantom better learn to march violins because Tchaikovsky.

Idiom? Seriously? The whole transfer of idiom from one form to another is the whole point. If we eliminate the distinctions between musical settings, then we lose variety in music. If a restaurant dumps all the ingredients into the same pot, every item on the menu is the same. If drum corps is everything, then it is nothing.

Hallelujah! Holy ####! Where's the Tylenol?!

[GUARDLING]

I agree with this. I highly doubt corps will come out of the gate looking like Ohio State Marching Band with sousaphones and trombones waving. There will probably be features and mic'd solos and stuff where they will get worked in. Maybe a quick gliss effect here and there. Maybe a couple nice solos. Proponents will say "see- that sounded great, no big deal, not really a huge change". Which leads to my stance of why the need to have band instruments at all, then. If they are just most likely to be used for "color", and there is already an instrument (save for the gliss effects) that already is a really close shade of that color- baritone- why the need to push this stuff? Just so a designer can make a tiny tweak in tone and timbre, huge changes that basically redefine what a drum & bugle corps is are instituted. It is very bizarre to me- I've never seen an activity implode on itself for the sake of things that most in the activity don't want and that don't really have much impact on the actual product. Just tossing out everything that makes it unique and special in the music ensemble world so someone can have access to a "tonal color". Bollocks I say!

It has been said in this thread that someone took an informal poll of kids and none of them seemed to care. Funny, because everyone I know- kids to old timers- connected to DCI don't like the changes and absolutely don't want to simply be summer BOA. Wander up to any hornline or drumline warming up in the lot this summer and say "hey, what's the name of your marching band" and see how fast you get corrected "this is a drum corps"...

I said it...and its true.....sure we dont want to be called bands thats the snobby attitude we have had since BITD....rightfully so maybe back then.....Kids dont care about the trombones being added for the most part a few people here have said it also BUT in you circle maybe they do care.............bottom line THEY ARE IN...and thats it deal or dont...it really is that simple...as far as wandering up to a hornline or drum line........and do that I can tell you with most staff I know....it wont be pretty...lol...i know though you didnt mean that and was just trying to make a point plus kids today are taught respect in corps and told NEVER respond to someone who obviously is trying to ruffle your feathers. NEVER ANSWER BACK....its disrespectful

I do agree with you though I dont think you will see full lines of any of the new stuff...but used in a way to enhance a product..........which will always come under critique and debate Im sure.

Edited March 6, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

... I highly doubt corps will come out of the gate looking like Ohio State Marching Band with sousaphones and trombones waving...

They would if the 'experts' secured as judges were of a different mindset; and there is nothing in the DCI judging sheets which places one style above or below another style. I personally like many of the current DCI judges. However, the only reason the subjective judging is currently skewed toward ‘progressing the art form’ and away from another direction like big-10 style is that DCI judges are mostly from the same academic mindset.

[corpsband]

Ok. However, for you to be consistent and not hypocritical in your reasoning, (which is the use of criteria on the sheets as interpreted by the all-too-human judge who relies on his own training and background to assist him in his application of the criteria to the performance at hand), you must also contend the following: Athletic competitive events such as Diving, Parallel Bars, Gymnastics, Half Pipe, Slopestyle, Aerials, Figure Skating, etc…, in which the rankings and winners are determined in the exact same manner as the athletic event as DCI, are also Far from sports.

(Lol and he rapidly changes direction! Alright I'll play along for one message at least)

The primary difference between those categories and marching music: the performance and interpretation of music. The other activities (while certainly containing to varying degrees some artistic interpretation) still rely on comparing purely physical activities which are comprised of well-defined athletic efforts (jumps, turns, spins, etc...)

In comparison to figure skating, marching music's criteria is downright nebulous.

FWIW there are many for whom the subjective aspects of the activities you listed disqualifies them entirely as a "true" sport.

Edited March 6, 2014 by corpsband

[Stu]

(Lol and he rapidly changes direction! Alright I'll play along for one message at least)

The primary difference between those categories and marching music: the performance and interpretation of music. The other activities (while certainly containing to varying degrees some artistic interpretation) still rely on comparing purely physical activities which are comprised of well-defined athletic efforts (jumps, turns, spins, etc...)

FWIW there are many for whom the subjective aspects of even these activities disqualifies them entirely as a "true" sport.

So producing musical sounds is not accomplished by purely physical means? I take it then that the muscles of the arms do not move the drum sticks and marimba mallets? That the muscles in the face and the strength of the lungs and diaphragm do not create the means by which the sound is created in the brass instruments? And that the choreography, marching, and high velocity movements performed by the body along with the high level of heart rate and high level of breathing difficulty created through that physical activity have no effect on those sound productions? Interesting; I did not know that.

[2muchcoffeeman]

I prefer the Frank DeFord conception of sport:

Finally, at the bottom of my sports purity scale, come the sports that are judged: figure skating, yes, and gymnastics, diving, the halfpipe. Are these really sports, even if the competitors must influence judges rather than beat opponents? Well, yes, in many respects winning a gold at figure skating is more similar to winning an Oscar than winning Wimbledon. But figure skating is physical and a competition and that makes it a sport for me.

The whole thing, here.

[BRASSO]

. it's people of my generation and the one after who are pushing the changes.

Ok, speaking of " pushing for changes", and with the thread title re. " some more equal than others", isn't it WAY past the time for DCI Drum Corps to consider coming into the 21st century where its clearly seems stuck in the past in at least one critical area ? I'm referring to Woman in leadership and key decision making positions in DCI. There arn't many. We don't see many of them on the DCI Board of Directors, nor in the commentary booth at DCI Championships ( they are found entirely down on the field slepping there for interviews). The inteviews on the telecasts in the booths in the Cinema broadcast were ALL guys interviewing guys. What the hecks up with THAT ? We don't see many Woman in the critical Show Designs responsibilities for all these Corps in numbers that are encouraging either. Where are the young female judges in the DCI Judging ranks ? Do we see any at all ? Good grief, whats up with that as well ?

I'll select one Corps ( it can be applied " equally " to others as well ) to illustrate this. I 'll utilize the current DCI World Class Division Champion, Carolina Crown. How many in numbers are on this Corps Board of Directors, and how many of them are Woman ? Those with the Corps will know. I have no idea how many Woman are in key decision making positions with this Corps. I really don't. Maybe its half, or even more. But my guess is, its not. So those in the know here, what is the precentage of Woman that sit on the current DCI's Champion's Board of Directors ? Now, before anyone accuses me of looking for quotas, thats not what I asking about, no pushing for here. I'm just asking for a snapshot as to where we are NOW, and whether or not it might be beneficial for DCI to have an outreach program, a mentoring program so to speak to being in QUALIFIED people that just might coincidentally happen to be female, thats all. So, how many Woman does Crown have on their BOD ?

Edited March 6, 2014 by BRASSO

[corpsband]

So producing musical sounds is not accomplished by purely physical means? I take it then that the muscles of the arms do not move the drum sticks and marimba mallets? That the muscles in the face and the strength of the lungs and diaphragm do not create the means by which the sound is created in the brass instruments? And that the choreography, marching, and high velocity movements performed by the body along with the high level of heart rate and high level of breathing difficulty created through that physical activity have no effect on those sound productions? Interesting; I did not know that.

If you believe music is purely a mechanical effort, I have little more to say on the subject other than "You have my sympathies".

Edited March 6, 2014 by corpsband

[GUARDLING]

Ok, speaking of " pushing for changes", and with the thread title re. " some more equal than others", isn't it WAY past the time for DCI Drum Corps to consider coming into the 21st century where its clearly seems stuck in the past in at least one critical area ? I'm referring to Woman in leadership and key decision making positions in DCI. There arn't many. We don't see many of them on the DCI Board of Directors, nor in the commentary booth at DCI Championships ( they are found done on the field slepping there for interviews). We don't see many Woman in the Show Designs responsibilities for Corps in numbers that are encouraging. Where are the young female judges in the DCI Judging ranks ? Do we see any at all ?

I'll elect one Corps ( it can be applied " equally " to others as well ) to illustrate this. I 'll utilize the current DCI World Class Division Champion, Carolina Crown. How many in numbers are on this Corps Board of Directors, and how many of them are Woman ? Those with the Corps will know. I have no idea how many Woman are in key decision making positions with this Corps. I really don't. Maybe its half, or even more. But my guess is, its not. So those in the know here, what is the precentage of Woman that sit on the current DCI's Champion's Board of Directors ?

youre assuming women want these positions...or any other people men or women for that matter......its not a easy job and most often many women at a certain point move on to family, job etc etc..those still involved may not want to touch it with a 10 ft poll....i can tell you many men dont want the positions either............is it still a boys club...yeah maybe....but worse maybe its a club that doesnt change much......often because they protect themselves and also because noone steps up to de throne...........thats more upsetting for the future than anything

Edited March 6, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

If you believe music is purely a mechanical effort, I have little more to say on the subject.

You are engaging in a false presumption of my statements in order to support your position based on your own bias. If you can show where I stated music is a 'purely’ mechanical effort go ahead, show us! But I did not and you cannot. I merely asked you a few questions on how musical sounds are produced and wanted clarification on how that apples to your contention that music production via physical means is not evaluated in DCI. There is ‘art’ within the production of music in DCI, and there is ‘art’ within the choreography production within Halfpipe; but unless the video concerning the physical effort exhibited by the Cavalier tenor drummer was a falsification, there is just as much physical activity to produce the art of music in DCI as there is in the physical activity to produce the art in slopestyle aerials.