Why won't DCI follow this type of path?

[Fred Windish]

First of all, this is an outstanding discussion!

The NASCAR comparison works in many ways, but in terms of parity, low funded teams can sometimes win, but I suspect that often comes with the aid of external forces that can seriously change the complexion of winning odds. Top flight cars can blow an engine, bungle a pit stop, blow it at qualifying, damage the aero package, etc. on any given day, giving a boost to cars behind that have better 'luck' that weekend.

I suspect the current DCI front runners are actually not too interested in creating parity. So long as they can do certain things others can't, that's a good thing!

[fsubone]

Outside of the NASCAR, there is a similar problem facing Formula 1. They are down to 11 teams, with a new one coming in for 2015 (strangely enough, Haas racing from NASCAR). Many of the big names teams and manufacturers like Ford, BMW, Honda, Jordan, Brabham have all pulled out of the sport because of the insane costs and travel schedules. Part of the rationale of them switching to smaller V6 engines this year is that it will lower costs for teams to join or re-join the sport, but it will be a few years before any kind of evidence or new teams.

There is a lot less chance of a small team winning races, but small groups like Force India and Williams have been competing quite well this year against Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull

Edited April 4, 2014 by fsubone

[garfield]

And many people associated with DCI seem to be blind that this is the problem. To sustain a 4 bus, 2 semi-truck, souvie truck, lead vehicle, with insurance, food, travel and hundreds of people, including paid staff, winter/spring camps, 70+ day summer tour schedule, ad infinitum… you must have the revenue stream to support such an endeavor; and when the revenue stream is not there for the 'majority' of the organizations involved it is imperative that the governing body either find out a way to help increase the revenue or find a way to downsize and cut costs. And if NASCAR was able to see this type of an issue as a huge problem for their teams then so can DCI do this for their corps if they would just care enough to do so.

By looking at the most recent 990's one finds that none of today's corps are seriously in debt. In other words, the revenue they needed to field their show was in their budget. All of them had buses and trucks and designers and arrangers and food and housing and they all finished their tour and made it home.

What's missing?

[fsubone]

Cut costs for the corps by ‘downsizing? Nope.By changing the camp schedule? Nope. By changing the competitive rules? Nope. By changing the tour schedule? Nope. But cut costs down on the corps by merely transferring those costs over increasing the financial demands of the youth performers to be involved? Yep. Interesting concept in how to cut costs.

It works for them. If enough kids get together on an apartment, it isn't too expensive for the month they need it. And it lowers their tour fees. So instead of charging $3,000 and housing kids for a month, they charge $2,000 and have kids house themselves for spring training.

[Stu]

First of all, this is an outstanding discussion!

The NASCAR comparison works in many ways, but in terms of parity, low funded teams can sometimes win, but I suspect that often comes with the aid of external forces that can seriously change the complexion of winning odds. Top flight cars can blow an engine, bungle a pit stop, blow it at qualifying, damage the aero package, etc. on any given day, giving a boost to cars behind that have better 'luck' that weekend.

I suspect the current DCI front runners are actually not too interested in creating parity. So long as they can do certain things others can't, that's a good thing!

Within an objective competition like NASCAR, as opposed to a subjective competition like DCI, the factors you described certainly do affect outcomes; but they do not affect actual parity of competition and the rules of governance. That ‘leveling the playing field’ and ‘cutting operational costs’ to keep the activity from imploding in on itself from lack of sustainability is the path NASCAR has, and is, taking and is a path which I would like to also see DCI take.

[Slingerland]

You could start by having all DCI corps vote on rule changes (not just the member corps).

Do high school football teams and college teams get to vote on NFL rules?

Just curious.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Slingerland

[Stu]

Outside of the NASCAR, there is a similar problem facing Formula 1. They are down to 11 teams, with a new one coming in for 2015 (strangely enough, Haas racing from NASCAR). Many of the big names teams and manufacturers like Ford, BMW, Honda, Jordan, Brabham have all pulled out of the sport because of the insane costs and travel schedules. Part of the rationale of them switching to smaller V6 engines this year is that it will lower costs for teams to join or re-join the sport, but it will be a few years before any kind of evidence or new teams.

There is a lot less chance of a small team winning races, but small groups like Force India and Williams have been competing quite well this year against Ferrari, Mercedes, and Red Bull

This cutting cost to stay afloat also goes for Indycar; and NASCAR is actually using the current Indycar engine rule as a basis for some things they are going to try and implement. By the way a problem Formula 1 always has had in team stability is that independent teams cannot compete, to compete in Formula 1 you can only be a ‘factory’ team.

[fsubone]

This cutting cost to stay afloat also goes for Indycar; and NASCAR is actually using the current Indycar engine rule as a basis for some things they are going to try and implement. By the way a problem Formula 1 always has had in team stability is that independent teams cannot compete, to compete in Formula 1 you can only be a ‘factory’ team.

Indeed. Although those factories can run multiple teams, as they're seeing with Renault outfitting multiple teams with chassis and engines, without putting their name on the outside. Ford used to run a few, Matra ran Tyrell, Honda and BMW had a couple. The extreme costs though did push most of them out.

The independent team rules though are most restrictive in F1. I believe Formula 3000 and GP2 are a bit more open.

[Stu]

By looking at the most recent 990's one finds that none of today's corps are seriously in debt. In other words, the revenue they needed to field their show was in their budget. All of them had buses and trucks and designers and arrangers and food and housing and they all finished their tour and made it home.

What's missing?

I like the 990s; they are business snapshots; but they only indicate the business practices of the organization. What you might want to do Gar is compare all of the 990's over the years to the competitive rankings of the corps placements year after year after year. While there will be some margin of variation, what you will more than likely find is that as a whole corps who stay in the black like SCV and BD who also have very high multi-million dollar budgets each year also have a very high competitive placement ratio in DCI compared to corps who stay in the black with very low yearly budgets. You will also find that corps who go into the red with million dollar budgets, like Glassmen, generally competitively placed higher than corps who went into the red with much lower budgets. There may or may not be a cause and effect, but there sure is a correlation.

[Stu]

Do high school football teams and college teams get to vote on NFL rules?

Just curious.

Huh? HS and University teams are not a part of the NFL. OC corps, however, certainly are a part of DCI but they are not allowed to vote on major rules and regulations in DCI; that is what he was referring to.