cfirwin3 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 OHHHHHH! I remember now. You must be talking about The Cadets of Planet Jupiter. All joking aside, Cadets rarely come out clean. I think it's easy for you to reflect on your inside perspective with the Cadets. And that would put your relative view in a much different place from me. But I just have a hard time comparing early season (or any part) cadets to where most other organizations come out and call them a "mess" without first drumming up a good dose of snobbery and exaggeration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Nope. Boston dead last in visual composition is more plausible. I thought their show was a visual train wreck with appropriate aural sound effects. The other bloggers mentioning the DTorchia seperated-from-reality effect are on to something. The beknighted Boston flacks (what DOES BAC stand for, anyway?) positing that their guard should have been much closer to or over Cavies have just been drinking their own cool-aid. Sal Adamo was being generous putting that hideous menagerie six tenths over Spirit. Thank you for your insightful commentary. Calling Boston's guard a "hideous menagerie" and suggested their visual design should have been in last place is clearly elevating the discourse. And, the dismissive comment regarding "BAC" was a nice shot. Either you do not understand the "Composition" subcaption (which I doubt) or you are in denial. Either way, most folks here on DCP who have seen the show seem to agree that it is, in fact, a vehicle which will deliver when clean. I'm not sure what the cause of your venom is. I only wish you a great drum corps season andhope you enjoy the results in Indy. And for the record, I've been around the "BAC" organization since 1978, and if Debbie Torchia was ever guard caption head, this is the first I've heard of it. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I hereby command you to take the position of DCP Meteorologist. I am a pilot and therefore part-meteorologist, and this was fascinating to read. Well done, sir. Are you familiar w/ the 'Vortex Theory' in NASCAR? Drum Corps should develop something similar. Need lots of rotation in the drill. Edited June 26, 2014 by IllianaLancerContra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) The show tonight should have been a bit closer. Cadets are also cleaner because, what they are being asked to do may not be as difficult as years past. They are cleaner /sooner because they should be their current composition with regards to drill and staging.... Also jot a full label may have closed thing up between 1 and 2. Not a popular statement but as Blue cleans, it will be more apparent unless Cadets add drastically. Things will be much closer sooner than many think. Having said that - great show tonight! Great night and finally not a rain out! This perception is sadly overused and very often false. Both the Cadets and Bluecoats have difficult shows. The notion of certain drum corps peaking is kind of funny to me. First, we don't know what each corps has planned. As it is right now, both groups have demanding shows. Anyone that thinks the Cadets show isn't demanding is crazy. Same with BLOOO! The Blue Devils, owners of 15 titles, have shown us that you don't need the most demanding visual or musical program to win titles. You need logically devised shows, performed to the highest level (and they've been the best at cleaning), and you need great performers who work hard. Last year the Cadets took a page out of that book. They came out very CLEAN and prepared. Their overall show design wasn't stellar and the boxes didn't enhance the show the way they had hoped, yet they still took top 3. Why? Clean performance. They played amazingly well (brass and drums), they marched their tootsies off (which they often do), and their drill was wonderful (which it often is). To me, they have a better show this year, and they are even CLEANER with a better guard. So this year I imagine they will march their tootsies off (typical for them), their music scores will be outstanding (brass and drums), guard performance might end up being top 3, and their GE scores should be higher this year. I'd say it's a top 3 show baring some incredible runs by other corps, which could happen. The ONLY corps I give a shot to of knocking off Crown, Cadets, or Blue Devils is BLUECOATS! I just don't see it in SCV and they are too far behind. It takes longer than we think to clean these shows. In 1988 the Blue Devils came out with one of the cleanest shows I've ever seen for June. And boy did I LOVE that show. One of the best brass lines EVER! Everyone said, "oh, it's not that demanding. When other corps clean they will lose." In the end they did get beat and came in 3rd. But here is the point. It took ALL SEASON for this to happen, and in some ways it was as if the stars aligned that night. Madison got a great draw of the straw (remember they drew straws for order of performance). Madison also was in the midst of a magical tour and had a once-in-a-lifetime show. My point is, even though BD did end of dropping to 3rd, they were undefeated ALL SEASON until semi-finals. So somehow being clean in June didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the most demanding visual book didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the overall best GE didn't hurt them. In the end they were still top 3...and in my opinion they should have been no lower than 2nd place, and more preferably 1st. Yes, Madison was wonderful, but listening to the tapes now, and watching that show...great stuff, but not in BD's league. Ultimately the judges rewarded design over performance back in 1988, and that's fine. That could happen this year, in which case that bodes well for Bluecoats; but don't discount the power of a good, clean, musical show with strong captions across the board. It doesn't have to be the hardest, most demanding show. More than anything it has to be CLEAN come season's end, and it needs to be clean enough early to establish a lead in score and content, and it needs to make sense and flow logically. If anything, it's the most demanding shows that often are the MOST difficult to clean. Ask The Cadets. Edited June 26, 2014 by jwillis35 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCHEZman Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) This perception is sadly overused and very often false. Both the Cadets and Bluecoats have difficult shows. The notion of certain drum corps peaking is kind of funny to me. First, we don't know what each corps has planned. As it is right now, both groups have demanding shows. Anyone that thinks the Cadets show isn't demanding is crazy. Same with BLOOO! The Blue Devils, owners of 15 titles, have shown us that you don't need the most demanding visual or musical program to win titles. You need logically devised shows, performed to the highest level (and they've been the best at cleaning), and you need great performers who work hard. Last year the Cadets took a page out of that book. They came out very CLEAN and prepared. Their overall show design wasn't stellar and the boxes didn't enhance the show the way they had hoped, yet they still took top 3. Why? Clean performance. They played amazingly well (brass and drums), they marched their tootsies off (which they often do), and their drill was wonderful (which it often is). To me, they have a better show this year, and they are even CLEANER with a better guard. So this year I imagine they will march their tootsies off (typical for them), their music scores will be outstanding (brass and drums), guard performance might end up being top 3, and their GE scores should be higher this year. I'd say it's a top 3 show baring some incredible runs by other corps, which could happen. The ONLY corps I give a shot to of knocking off Crown, Cadets, or Blue Devils is BLUECOATS! I just don't see it in SCV and they are too far behind. It takes longer than we think to clean these shows. In 1988 the Blue Devils came out with one of the cleanest shows I've ever seen for June. And boy did I LOVE that show. One of the best brass lines EVER! Everyone said, "oh, it's not that demanding. When other corps clean they will lose." In the end they did get beat and came in 3rd. But here is the point. It took ALL SEASON for this to happen, and in some ways it was as if the stars aligned that night. Madison got a great draw of the straw (remember they drew straws for order of performance). Madison also was in the midst of a magical tour and had a once-in-a-lifetime show. My point is, even though BD did end of dropping to 3rd, they were undefeated ALL SEASON until semi-finals. So somehow being clean in June didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the most demanding visual book didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the overall best GE didn't hurt them. In the end they were still top 3...and in my opinion they should have been no lower than 2nd place, and more preferably 1st. Yes, Madison was wonderful, but listening to the tapes now, and watching that show...great stuff, but not in BD's league. Ultimately the judges rewarded design over performance back in 1988, and that's fine. That could happen this year, in which case that bodes well for Bluecoats; but don't discount the power of a good, clean, musical show with strong captions across the board. It doesn't have to be the hardest, most demanding show. More than anything it has to be CLEAN come season's end, and it needs to be clean enough early to establish a lead in score and content, and it needs to make sense and flow logically. If anything, it's the most demanding shows that often are the MOST difficult to clean. Ask The Cadets. Thank you, you are right on! I know most Cadets stay off DCP because it's not a pro-Cadets forum clearly, but you are a breath of fresh air on here. I do agree the Cadets have a well constructed show, being performed like a contender would be expected to perform early season, that is strong but with much work to be done. The haters are now limited to discussing whether Jordan is lip synching or speaking. Cadets will never please this bunch. BTW, I also love the Coats this year as I usually do. Always a strong corps but this is my favorite show since 2010. I have some criticisms especially visually, but I'll reserve for another time. Edited June 26, 2014 by theCHEZman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCHEZman Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Thank you for your insightful commentary. Calling Boston's guard a "hideous menagerie" and suggested their visual design should have been in last place is clearly elevating the discourse. And, the dismissive comment regarding "BAC" was a nice shot. Either you do not understand the "Composition" subcaption (which I doubt) or you are in denial. Either way, most folks here on DCP who have seen the show seem to agree that it is, in fact, a vehicle which will deliver when clean. I'm not sure what the cause of your venom is. I only wish you a great drum corps season andhope you enjoy the results in Indy. And for the record, I've been around the "BAC" organization since 1978, and if Debbie Torchia was ever guard caption head, this is the first I've heard of it. I agree. One must look through the clutter in June to see content, and I have to say, I like Boston's guard which placed 5th? last season, and the overall visual show is great. They use extensive field coverage, it's interesting and intriguing and I almost preferred their "drill" over Bluecoats who have a great show, but, may use the rectangle formation in the front of the field with the brass line a few too many times. If you take out some if the cool effects they do, the visual is good but not great....yet. Edited June 26, 2014 by theCHEZman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emc2 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Thank you for your insightful commentary. Calling Boston's guard a "hideous menagerie" and suggested their visual design should have been in last place is clearly elevating the discourse. And, the dismissive comment regarding "BAC" was a nice shot. Either you do not understand the "Composition" subcaption (which I doubt) or you are in denial. Either way, most folks here on DCP who have seen the show seem to agree that it is, in fact, a vehicle which will deliver when clean. I'm not sure what the cause of your venom is. I only wish you a great drum corps season andhope you enjoy the results in Indy. And for the record, I've been around the "BAC" organization since 1978, and if Debbie Torchia was ever guard caption head, this is the first I've heard of it. I agree Craiga. PC info seems to be corrupt. The only corps i have seen live this year is BAC. IMO abstract and demanding show and what I have read and heard new to DCI. So far no surprises. The same as the past several year's at this time. Everyone seems to be in there comfort zone except Boston which reinventing their selfs (all around Great show). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000Cadet Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 This perception is sadly overused and very often false. Both the Cadets and Bluecoats have difficult shows. The notion of certain drum corps peaking is kind of funny to me. First, we don't know what each corps has planned. As it is right now, both groups have demanding shows. Anyone that thinks the Cadets show isn't demanding is crazy. Same with BLOOO! The Blue Devils, owners of 15 titles, have shown us that you don't need the most demanding visual or musical program to win titles. You need logically devised shows, performed to the highest level (and they've been the best at cleaning), and you need great performers who work hard. Last year the Cadets took a page out of that book. They came out very CLEAN and prepared. Their overall show design wasn't stellar and the boxes didn't enhance the show the way they had hoped, yet they still took top 3. Why? Clean performance. They played amazingly well (brass and drums), they marched their tootsies off (which they often do), and their drill was wonderful (which it often is). To me, they have a better show this year, and they are even CLEANER with a better guard. So this year I imagine they will march their tootsies off (typical for them), their music scores will be outstanding (brass and drums), guard performance might end up being top 3, and their GE scores should be higher this year. I'd say it's a top 3 show baring some incredible runs by other corps, which could happen. The ONLY corps I give a shot to of knocking off Crown, Cadets, or Blue Devils is BLUECOATS! I just don't see it in SCV and they are too far behind. It takes longer than we think to clean these shows. In 1988 the Blue Devils came out with one of the cleanest shows I've ever seen for June. And boy did I LOVE that show. One of the best brass lines EVER! Everyone said, "oh, it's not that demanding. When other corps clean they will lose." In the end they did get beat and came in 3rd. But here is the point. It took ALL SEASON for this to happen, and in some ways it was as if the stars aligned that night. Madison got a great draw of the straw (remember they drew straws for order of performance). Madison also was in the midst of a magical tour and had a once-in-a-lifetime show. My point is, even though BD did end of dropping to 3rd, they were undefeated ALL SEASON until semi-finals. So somehow being clean in June didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the most demanding visual book didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the overall best GE didn't hurt them. In the end they were still top 3...and in my opinion they should have been no lower than 2nd place, and more preferably 1st. Yes, Madison was wonderful, but listening to the tapes now, and watching that show...great stuff, but not in BD's league. Ultimately the judges rewarded design over performance back in 1988, and that's fine. That could happen this year, in which case that bodes well for Bluecoats; but don't discount the power of a good, clean, musical show with strong captions across the board. It doesn't have to be the hardest, most demanding show. More than anything it has to be CLEAN come season's end, and it needs to be clean enough early to establish a lead in score and content, and it needs to make sense and flow logically. If anything, it's the most demanding shows that often are the MOST difficult to clean. Ask The Cadets. Hence 1997 Cadets. I would have LOVED to march that show. But it was a MONSTER to get it clean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 This perception is sadly overused and very often false. Both the Cadets and Bluecoats have difficult shows. The notion of certain drum corps peaking is kind of funny to me. First, we don't know what each corps has planned. As it is right now, both groups have demanding shows. Anyone that thinks the Cadets show isn't demanding is crazy. Same with BLOOO! The Blue Devils, owners of 15 titles, have shown us that you don't need the most demanding visual or musical program to win titles. You need logically devised shows, performed to the highest level (and they've been the best at cleaning), and you need great performers who work hard. Last year the Cadets took a page out of that book. They came out very CLEAN and prepared. Their overall show design wasn't stellar and the boxes didn't enhance the show the way they had hoped, yet they still took top 3. Why? Clean performance. They played amazingly well (brass and drums), they marched their tootsies off (which they often do), and their drill was wonderful (which it often is). To me, they have a better show this year, and they are even CLEANER with a better guard. So this year I imagine they will march their tootsies off (typical for them), their music scores will be outstanding (brass and drums), guard performance might end up being top 3, and their GE scores should be higher this year. I'd say it's a top 3 show baring some incredible runs by other corps, which could happen. The ONLY corps I give a shot to of knocking off Crown, Cadets, or Blue Devils is BLUECOATS! I just don't see it in SCV and they are too far behind. It takes longer than we think to clean these shows. In 1988 the Blue Devils came out with one of the cleanest shows I've ever seen for June. And boy did I LOVE that show. One of the best brass lines EVER! Everyone said, "oh, it's not that demanding. When other corps clean they will lose." In the end they did get beat and came in 3rd. But here is the point. It took ALL SEASON for this to happen, and in some ways it was as if the stars aligned that night. Madison got a great draw of the straw (remember they drew straws for order of performance). Madison also was in the midst of a magical tour and had a once-in-a-lifetime show. My point is, even though BD did end of dropping to 3rd, they were undefeated ALL SEASON until semi-finals. So somehow being clean in June didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the most demanding visual book didn't hurt them. Somehow not having the overall best GE didn't hurt them. In the end they were still top 3...and in my opinion they should have been no lower than 2nd place, and more preferably 1st. Yes, Madison was wonderful, but listening to the tapes now, and watching that show...great stuff, but not in BD's league. Ultimately the judges rewarded design over performance back in 1988, and that's fine. That could happen this year, in which case that bodes well for Bluecoats; but don't discount the power of a good, clean, musical show with strong captions across the board. It doesn't have to be the hardest, most demanding show. More than anything it has to be CLEAN come season's end, and it needs to be clean enough early to establish a lead in score and content, and it needs to make sense and flow logically. If anything, it's the most demanding shows that often are the MOST difficult to clean. Ask The Cadets. Right on. The back and forth over who plays more/less, marches more/less, has the coolest effect... most runs... most heart wrenching ballad... etc. None of that on it's own determines a champion as a whole or even a champion in a single caption. That's not how it is decided. It is decided in the summation of captions. And the captions are decided in the relationship of content vs performance. Also, I think it is important to mute these arguments simply on the basis that music rating systems (like the NYSSMA manual here in New York) merely rate technical attributes of a piece. Such rating systems do not render a selection as more or less effective in the hands of a good ensemble. Who is to say that only certain types/genres of music merit a win? You can't be great at well-balanced, in-tune, long-tone chorals AND versatile flexibility through runs AT THE SAME TIME. These things are not in a hierarchy. Corps can do some of both, emphasis one... get scored, and that's it. That's why I think design is THE key to doing well in this activity. If corps wants to advance, then they need to design as contenders, market heavy on strengths and avoid weaknesses like the plague. That 1988 BD show is a killer btw. An all-time favorite of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nysader Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I could be mistaken, but I believe Ms. Torcia torched Boston's guard in 1994 keeping out of what would have been there first Finals appearance, Dumped them on Friday night, and put them out of the top 12, where they had been slotted for 12th place. Maybe she's been making up for that all these years? LOL Edited June 26, 2014 by nysader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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