bmjfelts1988 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) How did we do it in the 80s? Does anybody remember? I do. I'll wait to see if anyone answers... By not being spread across the field as much, or changing listening environments nearly as quickly. Nope! That had nothing to do with it. We did it with a whole different focus on where our pulse came from. We got our pulse from WATCHING the conductor (i.e. "drum major"). That was our focus at all times. Now days? I don't even know why we have drum majors. We should just do away with them completely. We don't use them for any musical purpose anymore. I've even been to rehearsals where kids are told NOT to watch the DM but instead "watch someone's feet". I've also been to rehearsals where drum majors were told to follow the battery. That os so BACKWARDS from what we are taught in standard music education and is also the reason why you hardly ever hear a good NATURAL "rit" or "accel" anymore. Those have to be controlled by the conductor. But intead, the conductor is controlled by the battery. It's the tail wagging the dog. Again, why do we even have drum majors anymore? And holy crap most corps have 3 or 4 now!!!!!!!! Why? We had 1 maybe 2 in the 80s and we actually USED THEM!! Backwards!!! Oh I have. and I do. The rest of your rant would suggest that you don't pay very close attention. Buddy controlled the tempo - and it breathed. Which is why the band swung so hard And yet, they are known for being precise to the point of almost being too perfect (exactly what you're railing against). Again, bad example. His playing with his band was some of the least musical playing Buddy ever did. Told you I was going to hurt some feelings. But understand, I don't mean all battery percussionists. There are some phenominal musicians in the battery percussion world who's approach has always been different than most others. Thurston? Float? Where are you? (just to name two of many) There you go again. "different than most". That's an insinuation that battery percussionists, in general, are not musicians. Otherwise, why would there be exceptions that you single out? Oh but they are far more connected than you think. Given that I teach/have taught in both circuits, I know exactly how connected they are. You're going to need to be more explicit if you want to draw some kind of sinister connection. Who are these "non-musicians" who are in charge? Last time I checked, the caption heads of drum corps are the ones running rehearsals and designing the shows. If you think they are unmusical, you're going to have to explain to me how all of these guys "aren't musicians". You know, guys who teach music at major universities and play in the top ensembles in the country. There are exceptions for sure - and I always enjoy those exceptions. But there isn't enough - and nowhere near as much as they used to be. I miss BALLADS......when tempo was allowed to fluctuate. Now days, it's against the rules to "rit". Lots of pulse in today's drum corps music, but where is the heart? Again, tempo fluctuation does not equal music. Expression is what makes things musical. Tempo is a way to do that, and there are plenty of shows that have those fluctuations built in. There are a lot of other ways to create music, and those are all explored pretty extensively in modern drum corps. I'm sorry that it doesn't fit your mold from the 80s, but just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean its not there. The rest of this I'm not even going to entertain because I don't feel like repeating myself. Edited June 27, 2014 by bmjfelts1988 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Interesting that you would suggest that following the battery goes against all musical principles, and then hold up Buddy Rich as an example of how music is made. Since big bands are specifically based on the principal that the horns follow the drums, that would seem to be a contradictory argument. And again, because the drill was not spread out, and the listening environments didn't change nearly as quickly, drum corps in the 70s and 80s could watch the drum majors just fine and stay together. That doesn't work in modern drum corps (or marching band). Different ensembles stay together in different ways (big bands follow the drummer, chamber orchestras communicate through moving together much like modern front ensembles do, orchestras follow a conductor since they are close enough to watch one etc). Again, I'm not sure you understand what the process is for keeping a drum corps in time. Its all defined by where individual sections on the field are, and that changes pretty quickly. There are times when members watch a drum major. There are times when they are listening to the battery. There are times when they are watching a backfield conductor. There are times when they are watching someone's feet (who is either watching a drum major or following some other form of information. The communication is way more complicated than you suggest because the timing demands are more complicated than they used to be. Again, sorry you don't hear the music going on. Doesn't mean its not happening. And yes, that means rallantandos and accelerandos as well. Just off the top of my head, here are a few examples of quite a lot of musicality, both in tempo and in other ways as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxM5xHmP7y4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyzzG5MTMyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E79dh20YAmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_YrlKGGgoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA5LUZrqW6U I'm sure there are a bunch of other examples. This is just what I could come up with off the top of my head. Here's the trick. You've simply equated "I don't like" with "Isn't music/musical". Like whatever you want, and dislike whatever else you want, but don't insult the performers, staff members, volunteers, arrangers etc who work their butts off by saying what they do isn't musical because its precise. There is a ton of music that is both precise and unbelievably musical. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmjfelts1988 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Interesting that you would suggest that following the battery goes against all musical principles, and then hold up Buddy Rich as an example of how music is made. Since big bands are specifically based on the principal that the horns follow the drums, that would seem to be a contradictory argument. And again, because the drill was not spread out, and the listening environments didn't change nearly as quickly, drum corps in the 70s and 80s could watch the drum majors just fine and stay together. That doesn't work in modern drum corps (or marching band). Oh hogwash!!!!! The drill spreads today are hardly as spread out in comparison to old drum corps as you think they are. I know what you're going to say - corps are bigger now. Yeah, hornlines are bigger by 15-20 people. Hardly enough to change the environment. You are really stretching with this point. Different ensembles stay together in different ways (big bands follow the drummer, chamber orchestras communicate through moving together much like modern front ensembles do, orchestras follow a conductor since they are close enough to watch one etc). Again, I'm not sure you understand what the process is for keeping a drum corps in time. Its all defined by where individual sections on the field are, and that changes pretty quickly. There are times when members watch a drum major. There are times when they are listening to the battery. There are times when they are watching a backfield conductor. There are times when they are watching someone's feet (who is either watching a drum major or following some other form of information. The communication is way more complicated than you suggest because the timing demands are more complicated than they used to be. Again, sorry you don't hear the music going on. Doesn't mean its not happening. And yes, that means rallantandos and accelerandos as well. Just off the top of my head, here are a few examples of quite a lot of musicality, both in tempo and in other ways as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxM5xHmP7y4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyzzG5MTMyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E79dh20YAmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_YrlKGGgoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA5LUZrqW6U I'm sure there are a bunch of other examples. This is just what I could come up with off the top of my head. Here's the trick. You've simply equated "I don't like" with "Isn't music/musical". Like whatever you want, and dislike whatever else you want, but don't insult the performers, staff members, volunteers, arrangers etc who work their butts off by saying what they do isn't musical because its precise. There is a ton of music that is both precise and unbelievably musical. We are just not going to agree here on the issue of musicality. And that's okay. It takes all types to make a world go around. We don't have to agree on everything. We do agree on some things (we were in absolute unison on the Crown issue the other day). As for musicality, you and I both hear completely different things that define that term. For my taste - I don't like how "mechanical" the activity has become musically. You feel differently. Fair enough. Enjoy. I'm going to go listen to 88 Devils now. By the way, there are plenty of things about the current activity I DO enjoy. I'm just disappointed on one aspect of it all - that being (obviously), our "approach" to the concept of "musicality". I come from a different up bringing with that issue. I'm sorry, but it's how I feel. And yes, I blame the WGI influence on the activity for that. Edited June 27, 2014 by bmjfelts1988 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 You asked for flexible time. Did you watch any of the videos I posted, or do you just refuse to accept that you've made an assertion that you can't back up. As for the field spread, the videos don't lie. Members are spread significantly farther apart from each other in modern shows. Whether it be huge forms that span the field, or pockets of small groups that have to play together on differing sides of the field. The listening environments and timing demands placed on the ensembles are significantly more difficult than they were thirty years ago. This isn't a matter of opinion. Half an hour on the fan network will show you if you are willing to take a look. As for "differing opinions" on what is musical: I'll go back to your Buddy Rich example. You hold him up as a shining example of musical, and yet his band was all about the precision you're complaining about. You've contradicted your own argument. The fact is, you wanted an excuse to wax poetic about how drum corps isn't what it used to be, and picked musicality as a way to do that because its subjective. You're using your "opinion" as an excuse to crap on the entire membership of DCI. Grow a pair and just say you don't like it. Saying its not musical is neither accurate nor fair to those involved. Again, still waiting for you to name those "non-musicians" who are in charge of the programming and instruction these days. Do you have the guts to name them? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanditKir Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 A couple quick points... The reason Crossmen used a metronome (I'm almost positive) is because they had not been able to put their preshow in, and that's where the source of time was going to come from. For why they wouldn't use a drum major count off during rehearsals as well I have a couple reasons... -Drum corps usually rehearse on as many as 3 different fields at once. The head drum major is usually with the percussion for percussion ensemble requiring the back field conductor to be other places but this isn't a rule. Either way, metronome is the only way you'll be able to keep the rehearsal environment consistent. -Using a drum major count off (correctly positioned towards the back of the field) is just as much a crutch as using a metronome with the added negative that because it's lower pitched, you increase the chance of people not being able to hear it due to wind noise, a truck passing by, etc. As far as how mechanical drum corps sound I feel that's a product of the fact that this is a competitive activity. Buddy Rich wasn't competing against anybody. Drum corps are working to prove that they are undeniably better than their competitors. Compare it to figure skating. Sure, I would love to see more competitors in the olympics do more entertaining shows but in the end what they are there to do is to show off the results of their training, not be performers. But the most notable ones are the ones who manage to both display masterful techniques, and capture the audiences at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmjfelts1988 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 You asked for flexible time. Did you watch any of the videos I posted, or do you just refuse to accept that you've made an assertion that you can't back up. As for the field spread, the videos don't lie. Members are spread significantly farther apart from each other in modern shows. Whether it be huge forms that span the field, or pockets of small groups that have to play together on differing sides of the field. The listening environments and timing demands placed on the ensembles are significantly more difficult than they were thirty years ago. This isn't a matter of opinion. Half an hour on the fan network will show you if you are willing to take a look. As for "differing opinions" on what is musical: I'll go back to your Buddy Rich example. You hold him up as a shining example of musical, and yet his band was all about the precision you're complaining about. You've contradicted your own argument. The fact is, you wanted an excuse to wax poetic about how drum corps isn't what it used to be, and picked musicality as a way to do that because its subjective. You're using your "opinion" as an excuse to crap on the entire membership of DCI. Grow a pair and just say you don't like it. Saying its not musical is neither accurate nor fair to those involved. Again, still waiting for you to name those "non-musicians" who are in charge of the programming and instruction these days. Do you have the guts to name them? Blaaaahhh blaaaahhh blaaaahhhh....I refue to go round in circles with you. I've stated my position and will not waver from it. If what I've said is not good enough or clear enough for you, that's your problem - not mine. What I've said.....................is what I've said and all I'm going to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 You're the one who started this thread. You asked for discussion on the topic. I'm discussing. Its not my fault you can't back up your opinions. Answer the questions and I'll stop asking them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmjfelts1988 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) You're the one who started this thread. You asked for discussion on the topic. I'm discussing. Its not my fault you can't back up your opinions. Answer the questions and I'll stop asking them. I already HAVE answered your questions. You just don't like my answers. That's your problem - not mine. Edited June 27, 2014 by bmjfelts1988 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I already HAVE answered your questions. You just don't like my answers. That's your problem - not mine. No you haven't. 1: How do you explain the video clips I posted if you say that there is no flexibility in time? 2: Who are these "non-musicians" you claim to be in charge of programming and instruction? 3: How do you reconcile your assertion that not following a conductor contradicts all music education with the fact that you hold up Buddy Rich as an example of musicality, where there is no conductor and the drummer dictates the time much like modern drum corps and marching bands? 4: How do you reconcile your dislike of music that is precise with the fact that the musician you hold up as an example of musicality is known for being a stickler for precision (as evidenced by the recorded rants posted earlier), and who's chief detractors claim that he was "too perfect". 5: What gives you the right to make a generalization about battery percussionists that they "aren't musicians" by suggesting that there are "a few exceptions"? Again, you asked for input and discussion based on your assertions that you can't back up. When I point those things you, you don't have an answer, so rather than actually come up with an answer that makes any sense, you try to hide behind "that's my opinion". You are the one who made these assertions. Its up to you to back them up. If you can't, then just admit that you don't like modern drum corps. But stop with the "its not musical" garbage, because its insulting to the huge number of great musicians in the membership and on the staff of all of these drum corps. There is a difference between not liking something and saying that it isn't any good. I don't particularly like country music. That doesn't mean it isn't music, or that the musicians performing it aren't musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Sound travels very slowly. By the time the DM's voice reached the back of the field, his countoff would be way behind his hands already (same reason you keep the long ranger behind the corps, and hornline NEVER listens to the pit for tempo). This was a preview/dress run at the end of a rehearsal, right? I don't have a problem with it. Edit: Some more specific maths for you. Sound travels at ~500 feet per second. At a tempo of 187, the delay from front sideline to back sideline is just over a full beat. And then it's another full beat before the sound from the back reaches the front sideline. So if the pit in the front and the hornline in the back corner both start off the major's voice, they'll come in two beats apart. http://youtu.be/rMPfLctjXbY But the sound from the Dr Beat moves at the same speed as the sound from the DM voice, rim-shots, the starter gun, and everything else. It is somewhat dependent on air pressure, but that should be the same as football fields are relatively flat. If you are really worried about timing issues related to the speed of sound, have the members watch the DM's conducting. It is limited by the speed of light, but at roughly 300,000 km/second the ~70 yards from a DM at 50 yard line it really does not matter. Edited June 27, 2014 by IllianaLancerContra 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.