corpsband Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 This is where I whole heartily agree Brasso. Today's emphasis has changed and thus the show construction has changed to maximize the points that it can receive. Now that says I differ about the execution driving the construction as well. If Avian was executed for instance at a top 3 level it would've increased (under the new sheets) the Design side of GE, and Analysis Captions. If its dirty, you'll get less credit from both a design and execution stand point. Granted I do think what u say about execution makes logical a d perfect sense we dont disagree. design is "potential" . performers realize the "potential". performers can also exceed it (witness Spartacus where the performers pushed that show past it's design). Every caption has a "what" and a "how" component. That clearly delineates design vs performer. All the wonderful design in the world won't save performers who just can't achieve it. So I don't buy the "it's all about adults" argument. It's equally about the performer bringing the design to life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) If one accepts the premise ( which I don't at all... but apparently and surprisingly to me some here do) that Show Design and Performance Execution carry equal weight on the current DCI sheets, then it naturally has to logically follow that the Cavs 2012 marchers share the equal responsibillity for their highly unusual placement slide of 5 placement positions in one year from 3rd tp 8th from 2011 to 2012. But I don't share this view in the least. Those 2012 Cavs marchers do not share equally in that placement slide at all. The adult(s) that created that Show Design bear the largest share of that responsibility for the Cavs placement slide.. not the marchers, who worked hard, cleaned their 2012 show design given to them the best they could. Performance and execution and marcher experience and talent are indeed important.. but Show Design is mostly where the points can be had ( or lost ) on today's judging sheets.. and today, more than ever, imo. Edited July 11, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyrp Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Point taken BK 2001- 6th in 00, 14th in 01. But, I will say that tends to happen some but, is it the exception? Or the norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) If one accepts the premise ( which I don't at all... but apparently and surprisingly to me some here do) that Show Design and Performance Execution carry equal weight on the current DCI sheets, then it naturally has to logically follow that the Cavs 2012 marchers share the equal responsibillity for their highly unusual placement slide of 5 placement positions in one year from 3rd tp 8th from 2011 to 2012. But I don't share this view in the least. Those 2012 Cavs marchers do not share equally in that placement slide at all. The adult(s) that created that Show Design bear the largest share of that responsibility for the Cavs placement slide.. not the marchers, who worked hard, cleaned their 2012 show design given to them the best they could. Performance and execution and marcher experience and talent are indeed important.. but Show Design is mostly where the points can be had ( or lost ) on today's judging sheets.. and today, more than ever, imo. are you so sure that the 2012 performers were up to par with other years? Cavies decline ( funny that decline would be a huge success for others ) was a combination of things..just like a combination of things are needed to be successful............or not Edited July 11, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric49 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 If one accepts the premise ( which I don't at all... but apparently and surprisingly to me some here do) that Show Design and Performance Execution carry equal weight on the current DCI sheets, then it naturally has to logically follow that the Cavs 2012 marchers share the equal responsibillity for their highly unusual placement slide of 5 placement positions in one year from 3rd tp 8th from 2011 to 2012. But I don't share this view in the least. Those 2012 Cavs marchers do not share equally in that placement slide at all. The adult(s) that created that Show Design bear the largest share of that responsibility for the Cavs placement slide.. not the marchers, who worked hard, cleaned their 2012 show design given to them the best they could. Performance and execution and marcher experience and talent are indeed important.. but Show Design is mostly where the points can be had ( or lost ) on today's judging sheets.. and today, more than ever, imo.Which brings up the BIG question......for what and for whose benefit is all this money and worked being expended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 it's the other way around anymore design dictates when the performances are somewhat in the same vicinity until this year I'd agree 10000%. This year however, it seems the verbiage on the sheets is actually being applied, and judges are truly judging the show of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric49 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I have NO respect for any corps that performs music that my kids played in band during the football games.... NOT the half time show...but stand tunes.Ignorant and stupid comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 The reason it is so heavy to design or visual is IMO it is a visual medium other wise it could just be a concert BUT more than that NOW compared to BITD what you do visually runs through all captions. It used to be you could squad turn, the rear march and now and then make a company front and that was effect. Didn't matter if it made sense or not, just play loud and make a company front and BAM! effect was turning a horn line to the back to create a softer sound , turn and BAM! well that doesnt work today, it is through every move, every phrase of music, every transition. SO yes, there is MUCH MORE demand put on those who create. MUCH MORE! what u do visually still gets too much weight musically, yet what you're doing musically gets you little credit on the visual side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Jeff, I agree with you on the guard comment. For clarity, my question is with respect to WGI's philosophy : what differentiates WGI's judging "philosophy" from DCIs, and is the difference "corrupting" DCI judging? E.G., what current DCI judges seem to have adopted this WGI philosophy and is there an adverse impact on DCI results. I may be totally off base but Marie C. comes to mind as an example. Visual, as I understand it, is the "modern" term for M&M ( marching and maneuvering for younger drum corps fans ) . Has exotic body movement, props, et al surpressed or surpassed marching technique and design accomplishment in today's drum corps environment? Is it time to upgrade the value of brass and percussion on the judging sheets to outweigh the value of such nebulous concepts as visual? I don't think anything WGi is corrupting DCI....I actually think it's helping DCI in many cases. I can't speak for the guard side, but several WGI folks do music sheets in DCI...not just the drum sheet, but GE, Ensemble etc...and I see this year the mentality of "any given day" actually being applied when you follow recaps. WGI percussion to me is the best run judging set up out there. They roll the judges out, say "make your call based on today and use the criteria on the sheet"...and they do. Very rarely do I disagree with anything WGI percussion judging does exception some classification issues. Mark, Caleb, Chris...they have their #### down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Ok... but. " Pines of Rome " ( First Mov.) was done by Star of Indiana ( 1991). My guess, you unintentionally misspoke, and actually are hoping that some modern DCI Corps recreates their show " Roman Images " in that entirety( not just do the " Pines of Rome" ( First Mov. ) portion of Star's show.. Is this what you meant to say ? try the Cavies back in what 82? 83? somewhere in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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