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Well, lets look at this to find out, since you brought this up. I know that as a former Dino judge BITD, you loved this BK 2012 show design, but its clear that, insofar as this is concerned, you and the current DCI judges are worlds apart. This is because in the all important Show Design captions, ts pretty clear that the judges in 2012 loved the Cadets Christmas Show Design WAY better than BK's " Avian " Show Design . For example, regarding the all important Show Design captions for 2012 at Finals between The Cadets and BK we find the following :

G E Visual........ Cadets, 5th....... BK, 9th

Music Ana. Cadets 4th.........BK 10th

Vis. Ana...........Cadets 4th..........BK 7th

Music Ana........Cadets 4th BK 11th

So what we conclude from this is that BK's 2012 Show Design was a dud compared to The Cadets Show Design, and as such, no amount of marcher " performance and execution " ( if they had it in, Brass, Percussion, Guard..... which they didn't ), was going to allow them to compete favorably with the Cadets that season, as that Show Design, by itself, prevented them from ever having a fighting chance in 2012.... no matter even IF the BK's MM's had performed and executed their show as well as the Cadets did in the Brass, Percussion, Guard and the other performance execution captions..

No, you can't really look at things that way, as the performance of the design has as much impact on the score as the written charts, be they music or visual. Lower performance levels will bring down all captions. You prove my point. Thanks.

BTW....the analysis captions are not about the design as you define it. They are more the technical content of the show. Subcaption terms such as composition and content are the 'book' portion of the sheets, and those are not design-based. You can have an extremely demanding show that is horrible in design.

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Yes. I think Corps at the top are given much more lattitude. They can play anything from Christmas tunes of songs even 3 year olds know, all the way to head scratcher complex shows where even the adul

You raise some great points. Obviously, there is a recognized need to please the fans....and that can be a roll of the dice because while some fans want the tried and true, some hate anything ever do

Hey Everyone, Long time reader, first time poster! I’ve been around Drum Corps all my life, but recently, I’ve found myself wondering about the creativity of certain corps; frequently from

Corps design their shows to the sheets... sheets they themselves had major input on. Corps BITD had shows that were designed to maximize their points under THOSE sheets, and similarly BD ( and the others ) design their shows for todays sheets. What is different today however is that a Corps Show Design has much more weight than the performance and execution captions once did. For example, a Corps today can finish 6th in the performance execution caption of Percussion.... which is primarily marcher performance and execution driven... and still win a DCI Title today. . But a Corps can not finish 6th today in a predominantly Show Design caption ( for example, such as Visual Ana. ) and win a DCI Title today under the current sheets. If anyone thinks its possible to finish 6th in a predominently Show Design caption today under the current sheets and still win a DCI Title today, they are probably just kidding themselves ,imo ( not referring here to you, HornTeacher on this )

Yet you keep trying to equate shows BITD to today.

Pus...you completely misunderstand the term show design as you define it and where it fits the sheets today. Visual Analysis is your example above...the two subcaptions are content (the technical aspects of the visual program) and achievement...the performance of the members as seen from the box as it relates to the content of the drill.

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Ok, here's your "logic " at work. You ( and 2 or 3 others here ) believe that scores and placements are an equal measure of Show Design and MM performance execution on the current scoring sheets. Thus, to follow this logic, then the Cavs placement slide from 3rd in 2011, to 8th in 2012, is shared equally by the Cavs Show Designer(s) and the Cavs marchers.. equally. ( you can't have it any other way, or your logic collapses. )

But I simply disagree with this. I do not have the 2012 Cavs marchers sharing equally in the responsibility for the placement slide from 3rd to 8th with the 2012 Cavs adult Show Designers. I hold the 2012 Cavs adult Show Designers FAR more responsiible than you do for that placement slide from 3rd to 8th. We just disagree on this... no problem. You assign much more of the MM responsibility for the placement slide from 3rd to 8th than I do. I think the 2012 Cavs MM's had no shot at all of staying in the top 3 or 4 in 2012 with that dud of a Show Design creation. You think they had that chance, if they executed and performed better. I think you are misguided in that. The Cavs of 2012, as talented as they were in 2012, never had a fighting chance at all not to have suffered placement slide with that dud of a 2012 Show Design, even if they practiced until they all dropped, and performed and executed the snoot out of it at Finals.

No you are totally missing the point . how many times have I said you need both to be at the top. Design is huge, IF its a crappy corps with great design it doesnt matter at all, There's corps like this every year EVERY YEAR. youre going to find this in more than 1 finalists this year also...these things go hand in hand....a good design will drive forward a good corps just as a good corps will drive forward a good design...and then there's the opposite. Then I suppose there can be a great design with a not so great corps so they get maybe 1/2 way there and the same as a great corps with design issues...where do you think the bottom corps are in all that as well as mid corps then top...not all that hard to figure out corps to corps.

hmmmm is this conversation getting to that point?

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02_26_2013_cavaliers_71_circus.jpgCavies 1971....kinda theme based , dont ya think?.....lol

Not to forget th Scouts "Alice..." show and Garfield's "America, the Brave". The Year Drum Corps died, if you recall.

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the performance of the design has as much impact on the score as the written charts, be they music or visual. Lower performance levels will bring down all captions. .

the analysis captions are not about the design . Subcaption terms such as composition and content are the 'book' portion of the sheets, and those are not design-based. You can have an extremely demanding show that is horrible in design.

There is not a single thing here in your reply that is at odds at all with what I stated above.

Lets be real here:.. Today, ALL the captions to one extent or the other, bleed into the other captions, whether intentional or not. Furthermore, recently judges have even been encouraged to go outside the borders of their assigned caption and comment on other captions, so naturally the bleeding takes on more weight.

But on the whole ( and I know you know this ) fundamentally a Brass caption judge is looking at how the brass line is playing.. with the emphasis on the " HOW ". He or she ( usually a " He " ) is looking at primarily the technical.. the pitch, the tone, the attacks, the release, the ying and the yang, and the other yada yada we both know. So this is primarily a performance execution caption. This is the caption ( along with Guard, Percussion ) where the performers.. on the field hold sway.

Then there is the Show Design oriented captions. Now of COURSE, these captions have to have a modicum of performer execution to effectively garner the possible show score points. Nobody here stated otherwise. But these are the captions where the adult Show Designer did or did not give the MM's a vehicle to achieve the available points that are possible under the current sheets. A " Music Ana. " judge is looking at the HOW a bit , of course, but he's MUCH more looking at the WHAT is being played. The WHAT however is beyond the pay grade of the MM. They are given the WHAT is played, and that WHAT is played is far more important in garnering available points on the current sheets than the points that can be had by the MM's in the Brass, Percussion, Guard, ie mostly performance execution captions. Vis. Perf is a function of MM abilities, but Vis Ana ( yes with subcaps, and the bleeding notwitstanding ) is primarily a Show Design caption. This is a function mostly of the adult created Visual in the show. The MM's, even with their input with their performance execution are captive almost entirely here to the creation of that Visual. Using the example of the Cavs of 2012, it mattered not how well they did in the performance captions that they had control over, without a Show Design that was AS GOOD AS THEY WERE, they had zero..... as in nada.... ziltch..... chance of retaining top 3 or 4 status in 2012, as no matter how well they played their brass, or played their percussive instruments, or twirled their flags, or danced, and marched in great execution, etc they were baked to a crisp in 2012 with that Show Design before they even stepped on the field for competition. I suspect, although I can't prove it, that a poorly designed Show has a bleeding effect right into the MM's performance execution captions today.. such as Brass, Guard, Percussion. I find it instructive that in comparatively sub par designed shows, the performance execution captions tend to take a hit too with the judges... and conversely, a show that is well crafted seemingly gives boost to performance execution. This could be a function of MM morale, or something else at work,.. ' not entirely sure, but its a curious that we tend to see this in caption breakdowns.

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There is not a single thing here in your reply that is at odds at all with what I stated above.

Lets be real here:.. Today, ALL the captions to one extent or the other, bleed into the other captions, whether intentional or not. Furthermore, recently judges have even been encouraged to go outside the borders of their assigned caption and comment on other captions, so naturally the bleeding takes on more weight.

But on the whole ( and I know you know this ) fundamentally a Brass caption judge is looking at how the brass line is playing.. with the emphasis on the " HOW ". He or she ( usually a " He " ) is looking at primarily the technical.. the pitch, the tone, the attacks, the release, the ying and the yang, and the other yada yada we both know. So this is primarily a performance execution caption. This is the caption ( along with Guard, Percussion ) where the performers.. on the field hold sway.

Then there is the Show Design oriented captions. Now of COURSE, these captions have to have a modicum of performer execution to effectively garner the possible show score points. Nobody here stated otherwise. But these are the captions where the adult Show Designer did or did not give the MM's a vehicle to achieve the available points thaty are possible under the current sheets. A " Music Ana. " judge is looking at the HOW, but he's much more looking at the WHAT is being played. The WHAT however is beyond the pay grade of the MM. They are given the WHAT is played, and that WHAT is played is far more important in garnering available points on the current sheets than the points that can be had by the MM's in the Brass, Percussion, Guard mostly performance execution captions. Vis. Perf is a function of MM abilities, but Vis Ana ( yes with subcaps, and the bleeding notwitstanding ) is primarily a Show Design caption. This is a function mostly of the adult created Visual in the show. The MM's, even with their input with their performance execution are captive almost entirely here to the creation of that Visual. Using the example of the Cavs of 2012, it mattered not how well they did in the performance captions that they had control over, without a Show Design that was adequate, they had zero..... as in zero..... chance of retaining top 3 status in 2012, as no matter how well they played their brass, or played their percussive instruments, or twirled their flags, or danced, and marched in great execution, etc they were baked to a crisp in 2012 with that Show Design before they even stepped on the field for competition.

all you have done is state the obvious...adults teach.....now there's a revelation ! Where you not taught by adults? did they not write your music as well as your drill and show...I think another poster said the same....whats with all the adult animosity. If none it sure seems it........never mind dont need to answer.........................long weekend ahead

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There is not a single thing here in your reply that is at odds at all with what I stated above.

Lets be real here:.. Today, ALL the captions to one extent or the other, bleed into the other captions, whether intentional or not. Furthermore, recently judges have even been encouraged to go outside the borders of their assigned caption and comment on other captions, so naturally the bleeding takes on more weight.

But on the whole ( and I know you know this ) fundamentally a Brass caption judge is looking at how the brass line is playing.. with the emphasis on the " HOW ". He or she ( usually a " He " ) is looking at primarily the technical.. the pitch, the tone, the attacks, the release, the ying and the yang, and the other yada yada we both know. So this is primarily a performance execution caption. This is the caption ( along with Guard, Percussion ) where the performers.. on the field hold sway.

Then there is the Show Design oriented captions. Now of COURSE, these captions have to have a modicum of performer execution to effectively garner the possible show score points. Nobody here stated otherwise. But these are the captions where the adult Show Designer did or did not give the MM's a vehicle to achieve the available points that are possible under the current sheets. A " Music Ana. " judge is looking at the HOW a bit , of course, but he's MUCH more looking at the WHAT is being played. The WHAT however is beyond the pay grade of the MM. They are given the WHAT is played, and that WHAT is played is far more important in garnering available points on the current sheets than the points that can be had by the MM's in the Brass, Percussion, Guard, ie mostly performance execution captions. Vis. Perf is a function of MM abilities, but Vis Ana ( yes with subcaps, and the bleeding notwitstanding ) is primarily a Show Design caption. This is a function mostly of the adult created Visual in the show. The MM's, even with their input with their performance execution are captive almost entirely here to the creation of that Visual. Using the example of the Cavs of 2012, it mattered not how well they did in the performance captions that they had control over, without a Show Design that was AS GOOD AS THEY WERE, they had zero..... as in nada.... ziltch..... chance of retaining top 3 or 4 status in 2012, as no matter how well they played their brass, or played their percussive instruments, or twirled their flags, or danced, and marched in great execution, etc they were baked to a crisp in 2012 with that Show Design before they even stepped on the field for competition.

Absolutely true that the players are given the show to perform. Are you modifying what you call 'show design' from your earlier description? That the complexity and content of the book is included? if so, then sure, it all matters. If a written show does not have a max level of compostion complexity, then the performance captions will not be achieved to their max. Nobody denies that, as far as I know.

As has been stated...you need everything in place to max out and achieve a high placing score.

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Yes, I am., as a matter of fact. From the preseason published 2012 Cavs camp reports, the 2012 Cavs had a lot of returning vets from their 3rd place 2011 Cavs Corps. This was additionally borne out by the 2012 Finals Age Outs ceremonies. The notion that the 2012 Cavs Corps had a diminishment of member marcher talent from 2011 to 2012 is not borne out by the facts at all. The notion that Show Design and that MM performance execution share equally on the current DCI sheets means that people like you and Corpsband are logically required to place the responsibility for the Cavs placement slide of 5 positions in one season equally between the Cavs marchers and the Cavs Show Designers for that season. But in my view, thats not the case at all here. The primary reason that the Cavs fell 5 placement positions between 2011 and 2012 is because the Show Design was a dud compared to 2011, and no amount of " hard work... cleaning.... performer execution... veteran and experienced marcher talent ", etc from that Cavs MM Corps was going to save them from bigtime placement slide from 2011 to 2012. And this is easily understood by people like me because we understand that is a misnomer that Show Design and MM performance execution are treated equally on the judging sheets. They are not.... no matter how many times some people try to tell themselves otherwise. It wasn't the Cavs MM's that were equally responsible for that one season placement slide of 5 positions. Thats absurd. It was largely the Show Design. That dud could not be saved by any amount of MM cleaning and " performance execution ". The current sheets wouldn't allow the Cavs MM's of 2012 a fitghting chance to stay in the top 6 that season, let alone the top 3. The 2012 Cavs MM's were doomed to a big placement slide (under the current sheets )from the moment that show design came off the adult's assembly line for them.

the 2012 Cavies did not perform nearly as well as 2011 did.

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