GUARDLING Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Corps finished 5th, 6th or lower and still won DCI over 30 years ago. Heck, SCV was tied for 5th in Marching and won the 71 VFW Nationals. The show design is irrelevant if the performers do not perform their show well to maximize what the designers create. That has never changed. and the shows even bitd were always written by adults as another poster stated. SHow design is irrelevant if not done well. No credit for attempt. At the same time, its much easier to clean a show rather than write a proper one. Design flaws are a nightmare to correct during the season. The who wrote what or who designed what or judged is silly to me, one is nothing without the other. and THAT has never changed. Edited July 11, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 The performers can play their music on their instruments well, and march well, but they will suffer bigtime placement slide if the adult created Show Design is a lemon compared with others within their DCI placement pecking order. Their performance and execution is irrelevant if the Show Design isn't up to the others within their mix. The Cavs of 2012 were going to suffer bigtime placement slide in 2012 ( 8th )even though the MM's worked hard, worked smart, performed and executed as well as the Cavs of 2010, 2011 ( 2nd, 3rd ). That Cavs Corps of 2012 had no less overall Corps marcher members ( MM ) talent as the 2 immediately preceding years. Its silly to believe otherwise. Fast forward to today, and the 2014 Bluecoats overall MM talent regarding performance and execution abilities is no more appreciably talented on the whole than their 2013 Bluecoats Corps, imo. What has them positioned to move from 6th last season to contention for the title this season however is one thing that trumps MM's performance execution on the current judging sheets.... Show Design. One needs MM performance execution AND Show Design to do well in DCI. Thats of course, undeniably true( and noone here has said otherwise .) But if you can only have one thats better and stonger than the other, its a no brainer... have a strong Show Design.... as thats where you'll find your most points to be had under the current judging sheets to move up, and thats adult created and driven, not MM driven. The same sort of arguments can be made about the performance being the driving force, not the design, so no, it is not a "no brainer". BK's wonderful 2012 show 'Avian' as compared to the Cadets Christmas show...who placed higher? It has been stated in other threads that the lower end of the finalist level corps have stronger design than the top corps in some cases. BTW...performance is NOT just the 'execution' of the show...the Effect captions also include how the members perform their show in generating the desired effects built into the show design. An effect sheet is divided into Repertoire and Performance subcaptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) and the shows even bitd were always written by adults as another poster stated. SHow design is irrelevant if not done well. No credit for attempt. At the same time, its much easier to clean a show rather than write a proper one. Design flaws are a nightmare to correct during the season. The who wrote what or who designed what or judged is silly to me, one is nothing without the other. and THAT has never changed. Logic is irrelevant. Brasso has decreed that "adults judge adults" and thus it must always be. Give Jersey Surf the BD show to execute -- obviously they will win because DESIGN is the only thing that matters. The thing that he does not and will not understand: design is meaningless without execution. But execution cannot (and never has) won on it's own. There's not a single championship drum corps that won without FIRST having a championship quality design. Not once. Never. Give a championship corps a bad design and they can drive the design higher. See BD-Dance Derby. PERFORMERS carried that show. Cavaliers in 2012 -- same thing. That show gets no where near 8th without the performers carrying off a weak design. There's nothing new here. Drum corps has always required good design to allow the performers to succeed. Bad design + great perfomers = mediocre show Great design + lousy performers = mediocre show Greate design + great performers = outstanding show Edited July 11, 2014 by corpsband 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) . The who wrote what or who designed what or judged is silly to me, one is nothing without the other. and THAT has never changed. Yes it has changed. .. no matter how many times you say that it hasn't. The newer judging sheets are a pale imitation of previous judging sheets where MM Performance execution counted for much greater garnering for total points to be had than Show Design did... heck in the earlier years of DCI, they never even had themed shows in most cases, and as such, the music need not to have had any relationship to each music selection played within the show at all. Show Design, ala a story telling, or a Visual rendering, was almost a total non factor in the early DCI judging sheets. It was all mostly performance and execution driven by the marcher members themselves. Thats not true today at all however. The Show Design, is a big big deal today, and its where the most points can be had ( or lost ) on the changed, and newer, updated DCI judging sheets ( now built upon a "build up point system ", rather than a" tic deduction point system" ).. So it HAS changed. Those who don't know this simple and undeniable reality either weren't around in the early years of DCI, or have amnesia, or are simply in denial. Edited July 11, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somerville Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 What does BITD mean? thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Yes it has changed. .. no matter how many times you say that it hasn't. The newer judging sheets are a pale imitation of previous judging sheets where MM Performance execution counted for much greater garnering for total points to be had than Show Design did... heck in the earlier years of DCI, they never even had themed shows in most cases, and as such, the music need not to have had any relationship to each music selection played within the show at all. Show Design, ala a story telling, or a Visual rendering, was almost a total non factor in the early DCI judging sheets. It was all mostly performance and execution driven by the marcher members themselves.. Those who don't know this simple and undeniable reality either weren't around in the early years of DCI, or have amnesia, or are simply in denial. well my friend no matter how much you think and how many times you say it was different it wasnt..more now maybe ok .....lol..If you dont think 27s guard drove that corps you are mighty mistaken, same with PR and there were plenty of theme shows..cavies circus goes back to the beginning of DCI..Bridgemen threw the war theme, several WWS. Cadets no more war.Sure execution was maybe more a part of things , maybe because people didnt understand what to do with the new process,BUT the design process and the evolution was in its infancy. Does any of this really matter though? what difference does it make . The point is ,,hell , who knows what the point is anymore...Ok desgin now, as corpsband said good design needs good execution to be a winner. CAnt pull off a good show if it isnt done well. One or two this year will prove that theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 What does BITD mean? thanks, back in the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) (Deleted...question already answered while I was typing) Edited July 11, 2014 by HornTeacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Logic is irrelevant. Brasso has decreed that "adults judge adults" and thus it must always be. Give Jersey Surf the BD show to execute -- obviously they will win because DESIGN is the only thing that matters. The thing that he does not and will not understand: design is meaningless without execution. But execution cannot (and never has) won on it's own. There's not a single championship drum corps that won without FIRST having a championship quality design. Not once. Never. Give a championship corps a bad design and they can drive the design higher. See BD-Dance Derby. PERFORMERS carried that show. Cavaliers in 2012 -- same thing. That show gets no where near 8th without the performers carrying off a weak design. There's nothing new here. Drum corps has always required good design to allow the performers to succeed. Bad design + great perfomers = mediocre show Great design + lousy performers = mediocre show Greate design + great performers = outstanding show highlighted part is exactly how things are done today or the thought process and frankly only makes sense. when brain storming these factors are always talked about as far as design and possible achievement. No brainer good design also makes their performers look their best as well as a good cleaner Edited July 11, 2014 by GUARDLING 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) I can put together the prettiest lattice-crusted Strawberry-Rhubarb pie you've ever seen. (Even better than anyone's Dear Ol' Mom). However -- if I leave it in the oven twice as long as I should (poor baking execution)...well....anyone want to try a piece? Edited July 11, 2014 by HornTeacher 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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