Random Draw

[Kamarag]

Random draw sucks. It rewards mediocrity and punishes excellence.

[N.E. Brigand]

Random draws are neutral and therefore don't punish or reward anything. To punish excellence, you'd have the best corps perform first. In fact, basing this year's performance order on last year's scores, as typically happens during early season shows, arguably punishes this year's excellence.

That said, a completely random draw makes the judges' job much harder and risks disappointing the audience. The Blue Saints will be much better received if they don't follow the Blue Devils.

But all of this acknowledges that the judges are human and will be subconsciously inclined to give a higher score to a corps who goes on later. Accordingly, I think the regional model is good: random draws within groups based on recent scores. I would prefer a group of four to a group of three, though.

[skevinp]

I think the judges are much more likely to get the ratings and rankings right when corps of similar strength are not hours apart.

Random doesn't mean fair. If two corps are duking it out for 5th place, I don't see how it is more 'fair' for one to have to go on first and the other to go on last than it would be for both to go on around the same time in the middle of the show.

At least when performance order is based on prior success, it is rewarding the more successful corps a bit for something they have earned. Like in many sports when teams with the best records get the best seeds, only to much milder effect.

[GeneralTsoChicken]

I like the idea of random draws AT ALL SHOWS.

It wouldn't take very long for the big dogs to see that they have set up the system for the lower tiered groups to repeatedly fail.

By the end of the season the groups that tend to go on first have lost days worth of rehearsal time. That makes a difference. A big difference. Pair that with having to stay until after the scores and the lots are released, and the lower tier corps are completely sandbagged before they even have the chance to pick up their lesser staff and inferior talent.

[charlie1223]

I like the idea of random draws AT ALL SHOWS.

It wouldn't take very long for the big dogs to see that they have set up the system for the lower tiered groups to repeatedly fail.

By the end of the season the groups that tend to go on first have lost days worth of rehearsal time. That makes a difference. A big difference. Pair that with having to stay until after the scores and the lots are released, and the lower tier corps are completely sandbagged before they even have the chance to pick up their lesser staff and inferior talent.

You want random draws at all shows to spite better performing corps... great reasoning. I don't really have sympathy for corps that don't have the same level of talent or design as top tier corps. They don't want it or need it. They work hard either way. Performing with corps that they are closer to in scores gives them a much larger advantage in moving up in the bracket than if it was random.

And lets not fool ourselves, by chance if the worst corps ended up performing last people would vacate the stadium before they even started... now how would that make the members feel to see the stadium empty out before they perform. oh, at least they get to perform with the sun not out... People like who they like, and it makes all the sense in the world to have the best corps perform at the end.

Edited July 14, 2014 by charlie1223

[GeneralTsoChicken]

You want random draws at all shows to spite better performing corps... great reasoning. I don't really have sympathy for corps that don't have the same level of talent or design as top tier corps. They don't want it or need it. They work hard either way. Performing with corps that they are closer to in scores gives them a much larger advantage in moving up in the bracket than if it was random.

And lets not fool ourselves, by chance if the worst corps ended up performing last people would vacate the stadium before they even started... now how would that make the members feel to see the stadium empty out before they perform. oh, at least they get to perform with the sun not out...

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

If there is a single point BAC is trying to make this season, it completely flew past you.

Those in power will only do what they can to further their hold over that power. The activity gap gets wider and wider and the lesser groups slowly get suffocated more and more.

[wilme861]

Absolutely not! How the regionals do it is good enough.

A completely random order would suck for judges and "accurate" scores. People seem to still think judging in DCI is totally black and white. The numbers judges come up with have to do mostly with the spreads, not the literal number that was given. A corps could totally bomb a show and receive a 90 while at the next show, they have the best show they've ever had and receive a 88 just because of how the spreads worked out.

Imagine Blue Devils going on very first at San Antonio and then Bluecoats right after them. Judges know these shows are high quality and score them as such but they also know there are other serious contenders that haven't performed yet that they have to leave room for as well so maybe they score Blue Devils at around an 88 on most captions and give the Bluecoats around a 84 just to leave room for Crown, Cadets, SCV, etc... On the other hand, if they thought those two were tight and give them 88 and 87 respectively, what happens when those other corps aren't quite better than Blue Devils but better than Bluecoats?

Numbers management is hard enough as it is now but a random draw would be a nightmare.

[drumno5]

I think the judges are much more likely to get the ratings and rankings right when corps of similar strength are not hours apart.

In the 1988 semifinals just such a scenario took place, Dutch Boy on early in the evening and Sky Ryders hours later, 12 corps appearing between them. Arguably cost DB a spot in finals.

Fred O.

Edited July 14, 2014 by drumno5

[garfield]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

If there is a single point BAC is trying to make this season, it completely flew past you.

Those in power will only do what they can to further their hold over that power. The activity gap gets wider and wider and the lesser groups slowly get suffocated more and more.

It seems your post's namesake, BAC, took the "inequality" of the G7 to heart and significantly strengthened itself, its management, its reach, its staff, and its seriousness about whether or not they wanted to have their future decided by a group of others. They got stronger to thumb their noses at the horse and pig of DCI.

That's pretty much what the primary players of the G7 wish the entire activity would do.

The power granted to BAC because of their new-found strength is the same power granted to every other corps that strengthens itself. With the power of good management comes experienced respect rewarded at the negotiating table of DCI's board room.

I appreciate BAC's theme this year, as it appeals to my vengeful streak. But I wonder, what does their show statement do to bring the activity together again? It seems to me that their new-found strength said volumes itself; was it necessary to stick a hot poker in the underside of the G7 4 years after it occurred, or does it just appeal to our base vengeance?

If BAC is, in fact, "stronger" (defined as...?) then I would suspect that the horse and pig on the drum corps farm would say the farm is stronger and not that the farm is threatened by their success.

[garfield]

You want random draws at all shows to spite better performing corps... great reasoning. I don't really have sympathy for corps that don't have the same level of talent or design as top tier corps. They don't want it or need it. They work hard either way. Performing with corps that they are closer to in scores gives them a much larger advantage in moving up in the bracket than if it was random.

And lets not fool ourselves, by chance if the worst corps ended up performing last people would vacate the stadium before they even started... now how would that make the members feel to see the stadium empty out before they perform. oh, at least they get to perform with the sun not out... People like who they like, and it makes all the sense in the world to have the best corps perform at the end.

It's not to spite the "better-performing" corps, its to level the playing field. It's a fact that the higher one's corps placement, the more time that corps gets to practice. It is always a competitive disadvantage to have to go on first at every show.

(Although, I don't believe at most shows the corps are "released" any more. If the first to perform can get their buses out of the parking lot, I think they generally send the corps down the road and leave the DM and a van to accept the retreat honors. One could then argue that the lower placing corps get more floor time than later-performing corps.)