TerriTroop Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Totally random draw won't work, for all of the reasons already mentioned. I do like the way the draw works at regionals, and it could expand to 4 or 5 corps instead of 3. So, I didn't vote in the poll because it was a yes/no option, and I'm not necessarily "indifferent" either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) What came first, the chicken or the egg? If there is a single point BAC is trying to make this season, it completely flew past you. Those in power will only do what they can to further their hold over that power. The activity gap gets wider and wider and the lesser groups slowly get suffocated more and more. Yeah, well you can fight the power however you want but not during shows that I pay for. I don't want the last few corps to be a corps that is in the running for 17th place. I'd like the last few corps to be in the running for the championship. If that makes me insensitive to "corps inequality" so be it. Edited July 14, 2014 by charlie1223 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWonka Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Do it with the groupings. 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, etc. All for it. But remember the last time they did it at finals(88 I was there). People got all bent out of shape. Screaming the draw helped certain corps... Edited July 14, 2014 by WWonka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) Keep in mind that judging is not the only (or dare I say, primary) reason for performance order at shows. When first-time or occasional drum corps fan, someone who doesn't read DCP or follow corps at all except when they're in town, comes to a show, he wants to be on the edge of his seat all the time. Ideally, after each corps he ought to say, 'Wow! That was phenomenal! I wonder what's next!' The anticipation of getting your face ripped off by the top corps should build throughout the show. I think this is true even for more avid fans. It's actually better, I think, for the smaller or less-proficient corps to go on first. The reason is that you're appreciating what they can do without being too critical. You know it gets better and better and so you are willing to make allowances. Moreover, the better corps make more sense too, because you see what they are doing better that the not-as-proficient corps tried to do. That was how my daughter experienced it at her first show in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago. It all made sense once Cadets and Bluecoats came on and she saw how the more proficient guards were staged, how they performed and executed, etc. You make a random draw at every show, and that throws the whole thing out of whack. Carolina Crown goes first, and first-time drum corps fan is like 'Holy ####!' He expects everyone to be like this. Then Spirit or Colts or Pacific Crest (no disrespect intended) comes on, and he's just a little underwhelmed. He's apt to be a lot more critical and say, 'They can't compete with the big boys.' Instead of leaving on a high, he leaves thinking 'Well, that first group was really good, but those last ones weren't really that good at all.' The defending world champions didn't get to where they were by being 'slotted' better. They got to where they were by unbelievable design and performance. Edited July 14, 2014 by mfrontz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralTsoChicken Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Keep in mind that judging is not the only (or dare I say, primary) reason for performance order at shows. When first-time or occasional drum corps fan, someone who doesn't read DCP or follow corps at all except when they're in town, comes to a show, he wants to be on the edge of his seat all the time. Ideally, after each corps he ought to say, 'Wow! That was phenomenal! I wonder what's next!' The anticipation of getting your face ripped off by the top corps should build throughout the show. I think this is true even for more avid fans. It's actually better, I think, for the smaller or less-proficient corps to go on first. The reason is that you're appreciating what they can do without being too critical. You know it gets better and better and so you are willing to make allowances. Moreover, the better corps make more sense too, because you see what they are doing better that the not-as-proficient corps tried to do. That was how my daughter experienced it at her first show in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago. It all made sense once Cadets and Bluecoats came on and she saw how the more proficient guards were staged, how they performed and executed, etc. You make a random draw at every show, and that throws the whole thing out of whack. Carolina Crown goes first, and first-time drum corps fan is like 'Holy ####!' He expects everyone to be like this. Then Spirit or Colts or Pacific Crest (no disrespect intended) comes on, and he's just a little underwhelmed. He's apt to be a lot more critical and say, 'They can't compete with the big boys.' Instead of leaving on a high, he leaves thinking 'Well, that first group was really good, but those last ones weren't really that good at all.' The defending world champions didn't get to where they were by being 'slotted' better. They got to where they were by unbelievable design and performance. No he doesn't. It is a competitive activity. He expects the best to be the best and the worst to be the worst. If anything, it would amplify the difference in quality by the viewer and make the perceived champion appear stronger. There are plenty of activities that show us competitive groups out of order until the very end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 No he doesn't. It is a competitive activity. He expects the best to be the best and the worst to be the worst. If anything, it would amplify the difference in quality by the viewer and make the perceived champion appear stronger. There are plenty of activities that show us competitive groups out of order until the very end. I'm intrigued. Specific examples, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yes, it's a competitive activity, but it's one where "the show"...from start to finish...has to be considered. Performance order is already random within blocks, save for the show host (if there is one). That's as random as it should ever be. If your corps wants to go on later, GET BETTER. Show progress over time. Hell, the reigning World Champion did exactly that, so saying "it can't be done" isn't a valid argument. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralTsoChicken Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yes, it's a competitive activity, but it's one where "the show"...from start to finish...has to be considered. Performance order is already random within blocks, save for the show host (if there is one). That's as random as it should ever be. If your corps wants to go on later, GET BETTER. Show progress over time. Hell, the reigning World Champion did exactly that, so saying "it can't be done" isn't a valid argument. I'm curious how your argument is citing an exception to the norm and claiming that is the reason why we should keep doing everything exactly as we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I'm curious how your argument is citing an exception to the norm and claiming that is the reason why we should keep doing everything exactly as we have. Because corps rising from middle-of-the-pack to perennial contender and World Champion is indeed an exception to the norm. It's incredibly hard, and not because the judges just don't like them. The reason that I think it should be done the same way is because the results are not predetermined by the performance order, and the show from start-to-finish is a product for the paying customers to enjoy. It is also a competitive event. Changing the performance order will probably not change the results in any significant way. It will, however, result in a worse show experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralTsoChicken Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Because corps rising from middle-of-the-pack to perennial contender and World Champion is indeed an exception to the norm. It's incredibly hard, and not because the judges just don't like them. The reason that I think it should be done the same way is because the results are not predetermined by the performance order, and the show from start-to-finish is a product for the paying customers to enjoy. It is also a competitive event. Changing the performance order will probably not change the results in any significant way. It will, however, result in a worse show experience. I haven't made it about the judges. I've made it about rehearsing FAR less. I fear putting a number on it, but 10-20% is probably pretty accurate. I want you to start a marching band, start with less talent to begin with, you have less for your staff. Now on your best years, you have a decent chance to beat some good bands. BUT WAIT... Now, put yourself in that equation and give yourself 20 hours less rehearsal (out of your hundred for the fall semester) than your competiton has. So much for that. Then only in the most exceptional circumstances can you climb out of your competitive tier. Even then, not for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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