Blue Devils B Placement Friday Night?

[N.E. Brigand]

I hate to blame their score on a recording. They had to change it of course because of copyright issues.

I completely understand (and I presume they could have left the recording in their show--they wouldn't have been using it all season without at least having live performance rights already secured, right?--but those passages would have been edited out or muted on the DCI audio and video recordings like several other shows in the past few years), but on the other hand, I would be very disappointed to learn that all the judges were paying no attention to the recording, as if it didn't exist. It's there, and it ought to be factored into the score.

[Tim K]

A long as they have had the different divisions, there have been questions about who belongs where. There has also been speculation for years we would one day see BIB or SCVC in finals. This year is the closest we've come. Since both the Blue Devils and Santa Clara organizations have talent to spare, I think we would have had top 12 corps by now if this was ever a goal.

Since I didn't seem them live in Indy, but only via computer, I did not think Spirit or OC had inspirational performances at semi's. I thought Academy performed better but they scored the same. I did think BDB was overscored, but thought they were better than Spirit and OC for that show. It's also my understanding many in attendance were surprised at the score of BDB.

In the end I think it's more a case of BDB having a great show when some of their competitors were not on top of their game. I don't think they would have fared better if they had competed head to head all season though there were some who predicted this exact scenario.

[DrumManTx]

Not really part of the discussion, but Vanguard Cadets show is an absolute treat to listen to. Kaval Sviri, How to Train Your Dragon, ect. Bought the MP3 and have listened to it multiple times.

[Eleran]

To clarify: not only does a world class corps not compete head to head against an open class corps till the end, NO world class corps compete head to head against the likes of BDB and VC until the end. The judges don't ever get a same show comparison until prelims.

That's simply not true. BDB (and SCV as well) performed in:

• Clovis, June 20, along with 7 World Class Corps
• Stanford, June 21, along with 6 World Class Corps
• Sacramento, June 22, along with 6 World Class Corps
• Santa Clara, July 1, along with 4 World Class Corps
• Sacramento, July 5, along with 1 World Class Corps
• Pleasant Hills, July 6, along with 1 World Class Corps

Same shows, same sheets, only difference being that the final placements sheets listed the Open separately from the World, but the scores were reflective of them all being rated on the same scale. In fact, Mandarins were in all 6 of those shows, and while BDB started out 5-6 points below Mandarins in June, they were within 2.5 points of them by July 5, and 1.3 points by July 6. Come World Prelims a month later, BDB were 3 points above Mandarins, which is hardly far-fetched.

The fact is, even if you get rid of the distinction between World and Open (which I agree with, btw - as long as there is no ceiling on corps members in Open, then there should be no distinction), you still can't force an Open corps to make the same number of performances as the World Class corps, so you will always have some corps that appear to be a surprise to you. Heck, BDB was trailing Vanguard Cadets from June until passing them in mid-July, then didn't see them again until Open Class finals.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Eleran

[DCfan76]

I happen to be an old grump that believes NO open class / div.2-3 corps should be competing during WC Finals AT ALL!

You had your Finals. Congratulations. That's it. If you want to be World Class, then get your butt on a WC tour and compete against WC corps night after night where the WC judges can get multiple looks against you and your peer competition.

This "feel-good," "let our little brothers and sisters play with us too," stuff is baloney. Open Class competing at prelims has NOTHING to do with enrichment or education or any of the other reasons you hear... it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that DCI does NOT have enough World Class corps anymore to justify holding a Thursday show - so they have to manufacture a way to make Thursday look important enough for people to still show up and buy tickets. Open Class to the rescue! $$$$

The result is this bastardization whereby everybody has been separate all season, but now we are all equal? Thank you Boston, we are the Animal Farm.

I just think it is a slap in the face to Academy, Spirit and Oregon Crusaders for BDB to pop in 15th without the same amount of looks and comparisons within the World Class competitive framework.

My solution? Take away all of the divisions... everybody is just Drum Corps - big or small. Everybody goes up against everybody every night. You don't like it? Then start your own league and have your own finals - but you aren't part of DCI.

That's my rant - what's yours?

[N.E. Brigand]

But you do seem to imply that OC shows are written to be easier. They aren't. OC is on the same sheets as WC. There's no tolerance or curve handed to the OC corps... same criteria, verbiage, number breakdown, etc.

Well, that's how it's supposed to work, but in one respect, I'm not sure it did: isn't there a required minimum performance time?

I thought that shows had to be at least 10 minutes long (and no more than 11 minutes 30 seconds long), but no Open Class corps were penalized in Prelims for having shorter shows--even though several of them were under that minimum time. Having checked the beginnings and endings of the Prelims performances of all non-Finalist corps in the high-cam videos, with an eye out for the timing judge when I could see him or her, these are the performance lengths I found (with the start/end times I used in parentheses, so anyone with FN access can double-check):

8 min. 32 sec. -- Gold (3:02-11:34)

8 min. 33 sec. -- Coastal Surge (1:26-9:59)

8 min. 48 sec. -- Genesis (2:51-11:39)

8 min. 53 sec. -- Colt Cadets (1:51-10:44)

9 min. 0 sec. -- Blue Saints (2:21-11:21)

9 min. 4 sec. -- Stentors (1:45-10:49)

9 min. 8 sec. -- Legends (2:33-11:41)

9 min. 31 sec. -- 7th Regiment (3:24-12:55)

9 min. 41 sec. -- Racine Scouts (2:17-11:58)

10 min. 4 sec. -- Jersey Surf (2:04-12:08) [world class]

10 min. 7 sec. -- Raiders (1:44-11:51)

10 min. 10 sec. -- Vanguard Cadets (2:39-12:49)

10 min. 11 sec. -- Music City (2:59-13:10)

10 min. 14 sec. -- Mandarins (1:25-11:39)

10 min. 17 sec. -- Cascades (1:45-12:02) [world class]

10 min. 35 sec. -- Pioneer (1:12-11:47) [world class]

10 min. 43 sec. -- Pacific Crest (1:05-11:48) [world class]

10 min. 45 sec. -- Spartans (1:36-12:21)

10 min. 59 sec. -- Blue Devils B (1:49-12:48)

11 min. 8 sec. -- Academy (2:38-13:46) [world class]

11 min. 19 sec. -- Oregon Crusaders (1:50-13:09) [world class]

11 min. 20 sec. -- Colts (1:53-13:13) [world class]

11 min. 22 sec. -- Spirit of Atlanta (2:11-13:33) [world class]

11 min. 35 sec. -- Troopers (2:37-14:12) [world class]

In some of the above examples, I never saw the timing judge circling a hand to indicate the show starting, so I started the count when the drum major began conducting. However, in other cases--for instance, Music City--the timing judge clearly signals for judging to start even before the conductor has begun. Presumably this was a way to avoid penalties, and you might guess that any Open Class corps with a short show made similar arrangements, although I would think that scores in the other categories would have suffered for the corps not doing anything for a few seconds (or sometimes for more than a minute, e.g., in the case of Gold.) And yet, I am absolutely sure about 7th Regiment's and Genesis' performance times: the judge's timing signal at the top is clear, which means those corps, at least, really did have a show of less than 10 min. and yet were not penalized.

In which case, if 10 min. really is the required minimum time, than DCI was grading the O.C. corps on a curve in that respect--and Pioneer and Cascades in particular may have cause to complain about scoring, on the grounds that they would have performed a shorter (and thus easier-to-clean) show too, if they weren't going to be penalized for doing so.

But BDB had the longest O.C. show, so this concern doesn't relate to their score. On the contrary, probably BDB's scores were a little higher because more time meant they could do more stuff--and do it well, of course.

(On a side note: it does look like Troopers should have been penalized for going over time.)

(On another side note: Brandt Crocker should do a little homework on the pronunciation of Open Class corps, director, and drum major names. Other announcers I heard during the season had no problems with, e.g., "Ibe Sodawalla" and "Les Stentors".)

(Edited to fix oversight of Colts' status.)

Edited August 14, 2014 by N.E. Brigand

[CloudHype]

Saw these groups live. The only group with a bone to pick about BDB placing above them is The Academy. Everyone else was just not acheving like BDB. Matter of fact, I had SCVC over Spirit. OC... I really like them, but I think they placed at the correct spot.

Edited August 14, 2014 by CloudHype

[N.E. Brigand]

I happen to be an old grump that believes NO open class / div.2-3 corps should be competing during WC Finals AT ALL!

I presume you were a young grump in the '80s when this also happened?

[luv4corps]

That's simply not true. BDB (and SCV as well) performed in:

• Clovis, June 20, along with 7 World Class Corps
• Stanford, June 21, along with 6 World Class Corps
• Sacramento, June 22, along with 6 World Class Corps
• Santa Clara, July 1, along with 4 World Class Corps
• Sacramento, July 5, along with 1 World Class Corps
• Pleasant Hills, July 6, along with 1 World Class Corps

Same shows, same sheets, only difference being that the final placements sheets listed the Open separately from the World, but the scores were reflective of them all being rated on the same scale. In fact, Mandarins were in all 6 of those shows, and while BDB started out 5-6 points below Mandarins in June, they were within 2.5 points of them by July 5, and 1.3 points by July 6. Come World Prelims a month later, BDB were 3 points above Mandarins, which is hardly far-fetched.

The fact is, even if you get rid of the distinction between World and Open (which I agree with, btw - as long as there is no ceiling on corps members in Open, then there should be no distinction), you still can't force an Open corps to make the same number of performances as the World Class corps, so you will always have some corps that appear to be a surprise to you. Heck, BDB was trailing Vanguard Cadets from June until passing them in mid-July, then didn't see them again until Open Class finals.

These shows were WAY early in the season and all in the same area. That isn't really what I was getting at. Yes there might be an open class corps or two in a mostly world class show, but I'm talking about something different. I realize open class is on a reduced schedule. All these creative minds in drum corps, it could be worked out.

[luv4corps]

8 min. 32 sec. -- Gold (3:02-11:34)

8 min. 33 sec. -- Coastal Surge (1:26-9:59)

8 min. 48 sec. -- Genesis (2:51-11:39)

8 min. 53 sec. -- Colt Cadets (1:51-10:44)

9 min. 0 sec. -- Blue Saints (2:21-11:21)

9 min. 4 sec. -- Stentors (1:45-10:49)

9 min. 8 sec. -- Legends (2:33-11:41)

9 min. 31 sec. -- 7th Regiment (3:24-12:55)

9 min. 41 sec. -- Racine Scouts (2:17-11:58)

10 min. 4 sec. -- Jersey Surf (2:04-12:08) [world class]

10 min. 7 sec. -- Raiders (1:44-11:51)

10 min. 10 sec. -- Vanguard Cadets (2:39-12:49)

10 min. 11 sec. -- Music City (2:59-13:10)

10 min. 14 sec. -- Mandarins (1:25-11:39)

10 min. 17 sec. -- Cascades (1:45-12:02) [world class]

10 min. 35 sec. -- Pioneer (1:12-11:47) [world class]

10 min. 43 sec. -- Pacific Crest (1:05-11:48) [world class]

10 min. 45 sec. -- Spartans (1:36-12:21)

10 min. 59 sec. -- Blue Devils B (1:49-12:48)

11 min. 8 sec. -- Academy (2:38-13:46) [world class]

11 min. 19 sec. -- Oregon Crusaders (1:50-13:09) [world class]

11 min. 20 sec. -- Colts (1:53-13:13)

11 min. 22 sec. -- Spirit of Atlanta (2:11-13:33) [world class]

11 min. 35 sec. -- Troopers (2:37-14:12) [world class]

This is VERY interesting. Hmmm.