BoyWonder1911 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Are the judges allowed to go back and edit their given scores they gave for a corps that went on earlier? Like what if this season, Finals was drawn randomly in groups of 3, like the S.A. show, and the BD went on before Cadets and Bluecoats? No way they would have scored 99.65. They would have won, yeah, but not like that. The thing is, the judges only get one crack at it. The last performance is the last performance. I wouldn't mind being able to go back and edit the scores I gave to make spreads more appropriate. What I would like to see is all the separate judging panels for all 3 nights, judge all 3 nights. 12 GE judges, 4 percussion judges, etc. Wouldn't really be feasible having 10 green shirts running around on the field, but you don't have to do that the whole show, you can hear and see a lot from the sidelines. Edited August 13, 2014 by BoyWonder1911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddyt Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Are the judges allowed to go back and edit their given scores they gave for a corps that went on earlier? Like what if this season, Finals was drawn randomly in groups of 3, like the S.A. show, and the BD went on before Cadets and Bluecoats? No way they would have scored 99.65. They would have won, yeah, but not like that. The thing is, the judges only get one crack at it. The last performance is the last performance. I wouldn't mind being able to go back and edit the scores I gave to make spreads more appropriate. What I would like to see is all the separate judging panels for all 3 nights, judge all 3 nights. 12 GE judges, 4 percussion judges, etc. Wouldn't really be feasible having 10 green shirts running around on the field, but you don't have to do that the whole show, you can hear and see a lot from the sidelines. I think there should also be instant replay available for judges. DCI should make high- and multi-cam views of each corps available for them immediately after each performance so they can watch them again, just to make sure they're really super positive that the number they wrote down was correct. They should also be able to revise scores after the blu-ray comes out. Much like how our economic numbers are constantly revised as new, updated information is released, something may have been missed upon the first dozen viewings that should be noted and scores adjusted accordingly. By Christmas time, it may turn out the Cadets should've gotten second or may even end up dropping to 4th. This. Edited August 13, 2014 by chaddyt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthe50 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Let's be realistic here. 99.65? You mean to tell me that for an 11 min show, there were no minor mistakes or issues. I find this hard to believe. What this proves is the judging community has issues. To issue a perfect score in any caption is a stretch. What this say is the judges have reached their limit has a judge and having nothing educational to say. When this happens all of the judges who gave that perfect score should not be allowed to judge anymore. Just a thought. John Ticks went out in the 80's 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forevergreen Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Blue Devils 2015 present........Romeroesque......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I swear......had Regiment, coats, crown, or maybe another had scored a 99.65 this discussion would be opposite and the sheets I think would be deemed appropriate. 14 BD was killer, 02 Rosemont was killer, 94 BD killer, 05 cadets killer, the list goes on. Every year devils dominate there is a million critics that disagree. Maybe a record number of championships (16) and horn titles should be debated next. I'd like to debate the '08 Phantom title. BD got a 19.95 visual score if I'm correct. Their drum line got killed in 5th , but let's say they were not maxed at that 20 in visual 1.........08 would be a devils title. Their marching was in a different league than Regiment. SO, these great scores....get over the system or give BD an 08 ring. That 20.5 or lowering phantom's score due to being less proficient than thought and in comparison to the follow up changes things greatly. (08 Regiment, which as stated awesome entertaining musical) That change would leave BD with one more ring and Phantom one less. Food for thought on a VERY clean moving 08 group. I guess the system doesn't work well when BD sweeps yet again. Personally I'd like to see Scouts sweep but......we will keep hoping. I say we give the judges room, I have a feeling 08 would have ended differently despite the WGI theater show BD would have been laughed at with. (Granted not their style. Not pushing the envelope and not very cerebral. Regiment was good that year.) Great entertaining show but very WGI I guess only a problem with BD. Where were all these arguments then? Yes, I'm that guy. Just give a well approached response..........I'm open to it. If I was a Blue Devil in '15 I would make a point to repeat just to set off DCP again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Let's be realistic here. 99.65? You mean to tell me that for an 11 min show, there were no minor mistakes or issues. I find this hard to believe. Judges are imperfect human beings, subject to their own internal biases that all humans have. As such, it is " perfectly " understandable that a Blue Devils on Finals night, in a major creative impact point in their show, can have a Guard member toss a rifle to another Guard marcher and have that Guard Marcher not come remotely close to catching the thrown rifle as was the designed requirement for the critical visual move that most everyone would be watching there, as BD designed it for us and the judges to watch and appreciate the toss and the expected catch.... and yet get a" perfect" scores nonetheless this night in GE Vis., Vis. Prof, and C.G..... Or for that matter for Phantom Regiment on Finals Night was shown to be to be quite clearly in violation of their time requirement to start their show, but the " imperfect " judges did not see fit to apply the required written penalty..... or for Boston last year to have arbitrarily applied to them by these " imperfect judges " a penalty at Championships by apparently violating the unwritten rule of the use of.... I know it is funny.... of the use of a little talcum powder as a prop in a show. Don't try to logically understand something that fundamentally can not be understood by the rational mind. DCI judging is like Religion. You need faith alone to make it work for you. If you have faith and trust, you need nothing else. And if you don't, and need to have it make sense for you, then you will be are doomed to frustration from now until you draw your last breath, imo. Edited August 13, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 THAT'S all you have to refute my proposed system, Jeff? That's not even phoning it in. I expected something more along the lines of your usual detailed, having been in the trenches insights, not "it's confusing." Sam i've read your idea 8 times. it makes no sense to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Are the judges allowed to go back and edit their given scores they gave for a corps that went on earlier? Like what if this season, Finals was drawn randomly in groups of 3, like the S.A. show, and the BD went on before Cadets and Bluecoats? No way they would have scored 99.65. They would have won, yeah, but not like that. The thing is, the judges only get one crack at it. The last performance is the last performance. I wouldn't mind being able to go back and edit the scores I gave to make spreads more appropriate. What I would like to see is all the separate judging panels for all 3 nights, judge all 3 nights. 12 GE judges, 4 percussion judges, etc. Wouldn't really be feasible having 10 green shirts running around on the field, but you don't have to do that the whole show, you can hear and see a lot from the sidelines. generally they turn scores in in "blocks". so for prelims, each block of corps before a break, the judge could go back and make adjustments if need be, then turn everything in at the break. WGI has used this for a while now, and DCA does too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Sam i've read your idea 8 times. it makes no sense to me Let's restate it then (from my early season rant) Judging: Putting aside the fact that humans judging an event are going to be inherently flawed, the major issues I have with judging are twofold...the unequal weight given to various captions, and the idea of “leaving room.” Currently, visual gets 30 points (20 each for performance, analysis, and color guard, then they divide the total by 2), Music gets the same (20 for brass, analysis and percussion....same addition and division to get the end result), which GE gets 40 all by itself (2 judges with 20 pts each, and they’re just added together). To me, this puts far too much emphasis on the visual and not the musical (a sentiment shared by many over the years)...something born out by 14 Crown, where they did not play more than 7:30 out of 13 minute total performance -- counting the pre show – during their 1st show broadcast....I timed it. A more equitable system must be devised (more below). As for “leaving room,” I cannot stand this concept, as it ensures, for example, that a lower skilled drum line that might typically score in the 13-14 range doesn’t get properly rewarded if they suddenly channel 87 Cadets and pull off the “golden show.” To me, if you perform well, you should be rewarded as such...if BD or Cadets out perform you and score higher, great....but you should not be punished by an arbitrary glass ceiling simply because you’re NOT Cadets or BD. If “leaving room” had been used in 84, the 27th Lancers would not have made finals. After prelims, their captions were between 11th and 17th...except for drums – 7th in GE, 2nd in field, 3rd in ensemble, overall 2nd with a 19.2. It was the drum scores that got them into finals. At finals they went on 2nd and still pulled out an 8th in GE, 2nd in field, 1st in ensemble, overall 2nd by 1/10th to BD (who went on 11th). They were a great drumline....but under “leaving room” concept today and going on 2nd at finals, they would’ve been screwed with no lube....that’s not how it should be...a good performance is a good performance...period. Dump the current 100 point total system with the unequal weighting...all captions contribute equally to the overall performance, and should be scored as such. Instead, award each caption 100 points, start from 50, develop a better tick/buildup system (I’m not advocating going back to the era of the timing gun... but a mistake – and the rules would have to clearly define what constitutes a tickable offense – should be penalized, just as good performance should be rewarded), and average the scores...so if the Podunk Cadets score a 75.8 in drums, a 55.4 in guard, a 83.4 in brass, and a 96.2 in visual/M&M, their end score would be 77.7. Giving FAR more room for scoring would reward those corps that show excellence early on and not punish them for simply going on early. Likewise, if the big dogs have a bad night, it reflects in the scores. The system would be the same for each class, so you wouldn’t have A-60s scoring in the 20s...but an A-60 85.65 would not be the same as he same number for an open class. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I swear......had Regiment, coats, crown, or maybe another had scored a 99.65 this discussion would be opposite and the sheets I think would be deemed appropriate. Not by me. I said earlier that in an ideal world, judges should not be awarding 20.0s to anyone. That applies no matter who the beneficiary/victim of that score is. Every year devils dominate there is a million critics that disagree. Really? Not sure I have read every post in this thread, but I do not recall a single person disagreeing about BD taking gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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