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2015 Predictions


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Since moving to Indy in 2009, Semifinals 13th and 12th Place Scores:

2009 - 85.60, 85.90

2010 - 84.65, 86.50

2011 - 83.40, 86.55

2012 - 84.60, 84.90

2013 - 86.05, 86.20

2014 - 85.35, 85.45

Average 13th Place Score - 84.94

Average 12th Place Score - 85.91

Average Gap - .975 (Though I'm sure 2011s 3.15 gap made that average shoot up).

2014 would have been 86.45 if they didn't get that penalty, Right?

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And under that " brutal " system as you described, Corps could make the Finals with scores in the high 70's... and at Finals Night, some of those 11th, 12th place Corps scored in the lower 70's, 20 or more points out of first.

It hindered creativity. Look at the evolution of programs with the buildup system.
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It hindered creativity. Look at the evolution of programs with the buildup system.

Not to mention that what actually constituted a "tick" was often ill defined or completely mysterious. Drum judges would "see" what they though might be a tick, and record it as one regardless of whether they actually heard it or not. Marching and maneuvering judges would often tick a corps for not applying a move the way the judge preferred it be done, regardless of that the corps' style was. Brass judges would tick things that weren't even mistakes (like slide movement if he didn't see everyone do it the same way...or at all).

Creativity and risk were never even considered (outside the effect sheets), as the execution captions were binary in nature.

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It hindered creativity. Look at the evolution of programs with the buildup system.

And yet, quite ironically there has been another development which may not be as well applauded.

There is much more individual work as opposed to ensemble work in today's version of shows. The tick system would have penalized ensemble work which was not simultaneously precise. Individual work was a way around those simultaneous ticks.

Some would say that today's shows actually lack precision and have fallen to a least-common-denominator for its effects. For instance, a guard no longer has to throw a flag to a marcher at an exact spot but throw "in the area" of the marcher; if no catch/not caught there is no error since each marcher is doing a separate rep that cannot be compared to another two. (rule of 3 similar was necessary under tick judging) (cf. Felini, '14)

Edited by xandandl
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Not to mention that what actually constituted a "tick" was often ill defined or completely mysterious. Drum judges would "see" what they though might be a tick, and record it as one regardless of whether they actually heard it or not. Marching and maneuvering judges would often tick a corps for not applying a move the way the judge preferred it be done, regardless of that the corps' style was. Brass judges would tick things that weren't even mistakes (like slide movement if he didn't see everyone do it the same way...or at all).

Creativity and risk were never even considered (outside the effect sheets), as the execution captions were binary in nature.

While the build up system can be argued is a better overall judging system than the previous tic system employed, people are only kidding themselves if they think that the current build up system is any less subjective and thoroughly and entirely an opinionated a system than the tic system. For example, we have judges today judging the same Corps in competition in any given nite and giving completely different " opinions " ( scores )in the same captions that both share, and under the exact same judging criteria standards both are using to judge what both judges in that caption are seeing and hearing. I would argue that under the current system there is FAR more disagreement among the current judging panels, judging Corps in performance,, than under the previous judging system, with previous judges in previous decades. One look at the disparity in caption and subcaption scores from just last season alone bolsters my position on this too. ( Some judges differered by as much as 5-7 placement positions on some nites, between one another, in their shared captions assigned to them.)

Start with the preposition that it is fundamentally impossible to adequately compare and contrast completely dissimilar things ( in this case, Corps doing completely different shows, different levels of demand, with completely different music, guard work employed among each Corps in performance competition, etc ). Then you can't go wrong, and you can sit back and enjoy the shows for what they are.

Edited by BRASSO
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2014 would have been 86.45 if they didn't get that penalty, Right?

Correct.

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I don't understand why everyone has BK falling. I feel as if last year was a turning point for the and that they'll only continue to improve. From what I've heard of their show this year, it's going to be better than this past year.

well they lost their visual caption who IMO is one of the best. Todd teaches the technique and cleans like the best. I think that will hurt them alot this year.

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Taking a still different tack, and predicting the ordinals:

1. 1

2. 2

3. 3

4. 4

5. 5

6. 6

7. 7

8. 8

9. 9

10. 10

11. 11

12. 12

I'm sure someone out there will disagree with me.

* Edited upon further reflection. I swapped 7 and 8. You can't tell because 8 became 7 and 7 became 8, but I assure you I did.

Naaaaahh, Kevin. Your pre-edited version was simply a case of placements prior to penalties. :silly:

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And yet, quite ironically there has been another development which may not be as well applauded.

There is much more individual work as opposed to ensemble work in today's version of shows. The tick system would have penalized ensemble work which was not simultaneously precise. Individual work was a way around those simultaneous ticks.

Some would say that today's shows actually lack precision and have fallen to a least-common-denominator for its effects. For instance, a guard no longer has to throw a flag to a marcher at an exact spot but throw "in the area" of the marcher; if no catch/not caught there is no error since each marcher is doing a separate rep that cannot be compared to another two. (rule of 3 similar was necessary under tick judging) (cf. Felini, '14)

Musically the corps are superior to the tick days because they're encouraged to add depth and complexity with reward if performed. I agree however, marching and especially guard is not as precise as in the past. Even your "top guard" for the past many seasons can't spin 40 flags in unison for more than 3 seconds.
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