Boerma's Back at Madison!

[NR_Ohiobando]

I think you should be extremely hesitant to suggest the accusations you did. I think it unfair for you to suggest that Cesario and/or Salas were being "paid" for the uniforms. What do you base your accusation on? Facts or baseless DCP conjecture?

Ok I'm obviously not explaining my view as well as would have liked. It's not nearly as literal as you're taking it. Let's try this a different way. Uniforms obviously aren't the only expense, or even the biggest. I'm just saying it's obviously got to be a symptom of a bigger problem if that sort of change occurs almost every season prior to a financial crisis.

As to "paying Cesario and Salas for uniforms", here's what I mean. Look at it this way: If you bring in the top designers in DCI, you're going to be paying them all an absolute ton of money. Especially if they are important enough that they can cut you a sponsorship deal with some company. Had Madison had other staff who didn't have a sponsorship deal and didn't switch uniforms every year, they would have less expenses simply because that staff would probably be cheaper. So it's not really that the uniforms themselves are at fault, but they are most definitely a symptom of a deeper problem. So my argument is that yes, they do have expenses whether it has something to do with the uniforms themselves, or the staff member(s) you hired that has a big paycheck that also gets you the sponsorship deal.

This analogy kinda sorta works...: If you hire NFL star "x" on your football team, and with them comes a sponsorship deal with Nike resulting in new uniforms every season... or every game, obviously you're also going to be paying NFL star "x" an absolute ton of money. That person obviously is probably a huge name that results in such a big contract deal. Of course, since it's the NFL it probably won't cause too much financial trouble, but the point is that even though the uniforms themselves aren't directly causing expenses they are still related to something in your organization with a huge amount of expenses.

I doubt I'll ever know exactly what went down in the Madison Scouts from 03-06 to lead them to that big of a fall, but the uniform changes are a symptom and obviously somehow linked to a bigger problem.

Edit: I actually would like to know what specifically went down that season if anyone is sick of me blabbering.

Edited August 22, 2014 by NR_Ohiobando

[tesmusic]

Ok I'm obviously not explaining my view as well as would have liked. It's not nearly as literal as you're taking it. Let's try this a different way. Uniforms obviously aren't the only expense, or even the biggest. I'm just saying it's obviously got to be a symptom of a bigger problem if that sort of change occurs almost every season prior to a financial crisis.

As to "paying Cesario and Salas for uniforms", here's what I mean. Look at it this way: If you bring in the top designers in DCI, you're going to be paying them all an absolute ton of money. Especially if they are important enough that they can cut you a sponsorship deal with some company. Had Madison had other staff who didn't have a sponsorship deal and didn't switch uniforms every year, they would have less expenses simply because that staff would probably be cheaper. So it's not really that the uniforms themselves are at fault, but they are most definitely a symptom of a deeper problem. So my argument is that yes, they do have expenses whether it has something to do with the uniforms themselves, or the staff member(s) you hired that has a big paycheck that also gets you the sponsorship deal.

This analogy kinda sorta works...: If you hire NFL star "x" on your football team, and with them comes a sponsorship deal with Nike resulting in new uniforms every season... or every game, obviously you're also going to be paying NFL star "x" an absolute ton of money. That person obviously is probably a huge name that results in such a big contract deal. Of course, since it's the NFL it probably won't cause too much financial trouble, but the point is that even though the uniforms themselves aren't directly causing expenses they are still related to something in your organization with a huge amount of expenses.

I doubt I'll ever know exactly what went down in the Madison Scouts from 03-06 to lead them to that big of a fall, but the uniform changes are a symptom and obviously somehow linked to a bigger problem.

Edit: I actually would like to know what specifically went down that season if anyone is sick of me blabbering.

You realize uniforms, even full price are not very expensive, right? Probably weren't a big financial burden at all.

[lowend]

Corps must be getting sweet deals then. I just paid $15,000 for 70 high school one piece coats and shakos.....no pants. That's expensive to me.

[tesmusic]

I just bought 112 for 29,000. Not a ton on a corps budget though. It is a lot at the hs level though.

[oldbandguy]

Corps must be getting sweet deals then. I just paid $15,000 for 70 high school one piece coats and shakos.....no pants. That's expensive to me.

If by getting their uniforms for FREE...yes, some corps are getting sweet deals. It's been that way for a long time. High School bands (most of them) also don't get the sweet instrument deals either.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Scott Boerma :-)

[jjeffeory]

2007 was a scary year. There was a huge staff departure, and for good reason; Madison was in huge financial trouble due to the managing of the Salas years. But they were still afloat for now. The goal was no longer "make Finals", and unfortunately more along the lines of "make Finals and... OH we need to stay alive". The 4 tunes chosen for the show had very little "Madison" feel to it, and the corps itself seemed depleted from the shortcomings of staff departure. It was clearly trying to match the new direction of DCI design, but unfortunately didn't have the ammo or design chops to compete. People often claim this was the identity crisis at its worst. An old corps trying to be new. The opening of the show was actually pretty amazing, but aside from that this corps seemed like it just needed to keep its head above water. After an incredibly terrifying series of early season placements, the 2007 corps placed 15th overall. (New Uniforms... AGAIN)

I believe the opening drill was actually written for when the corps first entered the field, but it was so well received it was changed to the actual opener.

I lived in Madison that year and went to the Spring camp/preview; saw this uniform at the end and went :

I don't know who thought that worked. Just terrible, especially after these:

2007 was a VERY rough year for them....

What's going on right now, seems like nothing in comparison; I thought their show this year was just fine and they performed it well, BUT there were so many great designs this year, and that's what seems to drive the scores more than anything else.

This group of stuff coming in sound like a GREAT bunch of announcements so far! Boerma is just what Madison needs in order to sound like Madison.

Edited August 23, 2014 by jjeffeory

[Jeff Ream]

To me that shows no matter who's on staff, your design team and program coordinator has to give you something good to work with and some room to work in your element. IE Spirit 2009 vs. 2011 - 2013 vs. 2014. I'd say 2011 to 2013 were hugely successful for Spirit.

the Icon show grew on me as the season went on

[Jeff Ream]

In 2000 and 2001 they started feeling the heat from not having a decent colorguard, visual program, or going after the "total package" GE design that Cavaliers led the way with. Scott Stewart's philosophy on the colorguard and overall design unfortunately was holding them back while other corps moved on. Their brass was still ridiculous, but visual and GE were still pretty dirty. Essentially performing an early 90s show in a new decade. They started dropping to the lower part of finals. 10th & 11th place compared to the 6th place 99 show.

In 2002 they dropped out of finals. Getting beat by both Seattle Cascades and Magic of Orlando. Same reasons as before; weak visual and GE. Their drill was exceptionally difficult for a 14th place corps. The rewards for difficulty vs. cleanliness especially hurt them in this season.

In 2003 they hired Sal Salas and Mike Cesario to kind of get a grip on the new design road. It worked briefly. New uniforms and all. Scouts placed 8th in 2003 while still playing G Bugles. The show wasn't much of a total package, but visually it was a huge improvement over 2000-2002. Couple this with a stronger cleaner drumline, and things were looking up. It wasn't the same "IN YOUR FACE" Madison as the past, but at least it got back into finals.

In 2004 they switched to Bb and began toning down their show. No more in your face stuff. Everything was much more... "symphonic" I guess. Even playing Malaga, a lot of fans felt there wasn't much to cheer for aside from the ending. Madison was placing in finals, but fans still seemed to miss the old Madison. On a bright note, their drumline was really starting to show signs of amazing quality. Pete Weber, a new upcoming drill writer, started showing signs of life for the visual program. 8th place overall. (Edit: Technically there were just new gauntlets this year)

2005 was the best year (competitively) for Madison from the decade. The show was a modern adaptation of Carmen and featured a female solo dancer. Pete Weber's drill was on point, the colorguard was the best it's ever been, and IIRC the drumline placed 4th overall. Screaming solos and all. IMO this was still a fairly tame Madison show and still had a lot of design problems, but again, competitively it placed well. 6th place overall. (New Uniform Jackets/Hats/Gauntlets)

2006 was when the problems of Salas' management began to make themselves known. If I remember correctly there was a lot of staff issues this season causing behind the scenes drama, but someone else might want to chime in on this. I think their lead screaming sop went down mid/early season. And to make matters worse, this was a very very symphonic Madison show with incredibly little old feeling to it. Pete Weber was swapped with Myron Rosander, and the Scouts had an unbelievable beast of a visual program that was of course impossible to clean. Drumline was still incredibly talented with Lee Beddis at the helm, but unfortunately there was no room to make up for the design mishaps. Despite having finals at home in Madison, the Scouts placed 9th overall and were unable to improve on last season's success. They also had new uniforms in a modern adaptation of their 1983-84 uniforms that didn't go over well. A new uniform for every season since Salas came in means a lot of expenses...

2007 was a scary year. There was a huge staff departure, and for good reason; Madison was in huge financial trouble due to the managing of the Salas years. But they were still afloat for now. The goal was no longer "make Finals", and unfortunately more along the lines of "make Finals and... OH we need to stay alive". The 4 tunes chosen for the show had very little "Madison" feel to it, and the corps itself seemed depleted from the shortcomings of staff departure. It was clearly trying to match the new direction of DCI design, but unfortunately didn't have the ammo or design chops to compete. People often claim this was the identity crisis at its worst. An old corps trying to be new. The opening of the show was actually pretty amazing, but aside from that this corps seemed like it just needed to keep its head above water. After an incredibly terrifying series of early season placements, the 2007 corps placed 15th overall. (New Uniforms... AGAIN)

2008 was a decent rebound year. The corps was a bit more stable and started showing signs of life. Madison Alums Dr. Nick Williams and Dann Petersen sort of led the helm while a few BD alums kept the drumline above water. This show was fast and nonstop, but the execution stayed high enough to keep it in the hunt for Finals. In the end things worked out and Madison snuck back into Finals with a 12th place finish. (NEW UNIFORMS AGAIN). Fun fact: Madison is the only corps in DCI history to place everywhere during Finals. At some point in their history, they have placed anywhere from 1st to 12th.

2009 was another scary year. Some very poor design choices. The designed a Latin superhero show... without a villain, making things incredibly hokey. The drumline, especially the bassline, was incredibly talented. IIRC the bassline won I&E that year and had an insane lick during the drum feature. Unfortunately the product held them down the entire season, and the Scouts fell to 15th place once again. (NEW UNIFORMS... kinda. I think it was just a new gigantic red sash that didn't work well)

In 2010 Jim Mason was brought on, and from there staff members just kinda came out of the woodwork to provide a huge amount of stability the Scouts were not at all used to. Jim Prime (Garfield, Star, and Blast! arranger), Jon Vanderkolff (Star 93 and Blast!), Thom Hannum, Nick Angelis... things were looking up. In 2010 the Scouts stormed back with an untitled old school show and placed 10th at Finals.

From 2011 to present the Scouts have been putting on great shows, but unfortunately cannot crack the top 8. Mason brought stability, but a lot of the design choices just weren't efficient enough to put Madison over the edge. It seemed like every year they'd get jumped by Boston or Blue Knights at some point and never catch up. 2011 - 10th Place, 2012 - 9th place, 2013 - 9th place, 2014 - 11th place.

So right now Madison has a bit of stability, but are still looking to push past the top 9 into better competitive territory.

spot on

[kdaddy]

2005 was the best year (competitively) for Madison from the decade. The show was a modern adaptation of Carmen and featured a female solo dancer. Pete Weber's drill was on point, the colorguard was the best it's ever been, and IIRC the drumline placed 4th overall. Screaming solos and all. IMO this was still a fairly tame Madison show and still had a lot of design problems, but again, competitively it placed well. 6th place overall. (New Uniform Jackets/Hats/Gauntlets)

2006 was when the problems of Salas' management began to make themselves known. If I remember correctly there was a lot of staff issues this season causing behind the scenes drama, but someone else might want to chime in on this. I think their lead screaming sop went down mid/early season. And to make matters worse, this was a very very symphonic Madison show with incredibly little old feeling to it. Pete Weber was swapped with Myron Rosander, and the Scouts had an unbelievable beast of a visual program that was of course impossible to clean. Drumline was still incredibly talented with Lee Beddis at the helm, but unfortunately there was no room to make up for the design mishaps. Despite having finals at home in Madison, the Scouts placed 9th overall and were unable to improve on last season's success. They also had new uniforms in a modern adaptation of their 1983-84 uniforms that didn't go over well. A new uniform for every season since Salas came in means a lot of expenses...

I was recently told that the 2005 design team didn't realize how much talent would be in the 2005 corps. That corps was tearing it up early, and there was title chatter (though it seems there always is for the Scouts). Then achievement began to overtake content, and they "fell" to sixth. Man, if only that corps could've finished in the top three... Then the design team overcompensated with 2006 with a product that was impossible.

Also, it seems a big deal is being made of Sal Salas buying new unis in three of his four years (though I always assumed the 2005 unis were the same as the 2003-04 unis, so this is news). But there's no explicit criticism of three uniform changes in the following four seasons after Salas. It has, however, been pointed out that any uni Salas brought on board looked better than the 2007 or 2008-2009 train wrecks.

[oldbandguy]

I was recently told that the 2005 design team didn't realize how much talent would be in the 2005 corps. That corps was tearing it up early, and there was title chatter (though it seems there always is for the Scouts). Then achievement began to overtake content, and they "fell" to sixth. Man, if only that corps could've finished in the top three... Then the design team overcompensated with 2006 with a product that was impossible.

Also, it seems a big deal is being made of Sal Salas buying new unis in three of his four years (though I always assumed the 2005 unis were the same as the 2003-04 unis, so this is news). But there's no explicit criticism of three uniform changes in the following four seasons after Salas. It has, however, been pointed out that any uni Salas brought on board looked better than the 2007 or 2008-2009 train wrecks.

Actually at the 2005 finals the content scores were ABOVE achievement scores in 6 of 8 captions.

Props to the Scouts drumline that did place 4th in 2005 ahead of BD and Coats.