brichtimp Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I think that with some of the inconsistencies that DCP posters alluded to in some of the judging panel scoring this past season, it would be enlightening to hear a few tapes to understand what was sampled and what got missed, and what was emphasized in the comments of specific judges. I think it helps us as avid fans to calibrate what we see and hear (or miss) with what the judges were evaluating. For me, auditing some tapes from Indy for the top 3-4corps would be very enlightening and also entertaining...beyond the gushing comments that typically show up on the tapes that do get posted....IMHO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 The curious side of me would love to hear the tapes, if the tapes shed any real light on the performance. In the past some tapes have been released and they are nothing but a love fest for the corps. I recall one corps releasing a tape and the comments began with "I hope you're relaxed and ready for a great show" and lots of woa! and wows! with a "watch out dude" followed by a "close call." There were no healthy critiques or constructive positive comments. The scores were pretty low and for me, could not be justified by the tape.This was a midseason show and my guess is some may remember the tape and the corps. To be fair, it was combined with a video, no doubt the work of the corps. Now I'm all for positive reinforcement and casual comments, but my guess would be that corps that are fighting for a place in the Top 12 to being the champion want more than kindergarten appropriate comments delivered by a wannabe surfer. Also, while the release of the tapes or a transcript may lead to spirited discussions, especially on DCP, we already go off on tangents when certain drum corps personalities speak or post messages on Twitter or Facebook, so could you imagine the rants if judges tapes were released. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) From one who remembers when judges did not use tapes: One of the major reasons for the tapes was as a pedagological tool to help the instructor(s) better train the performers/marchers (but now we have front ensemble to consider.) It was another tool to make the members better (not just the corps.) Yes, there is ego to be considered on polar ends: are the judges accurate, articulate, insightful, helpful? Is there any observation which the instructor might not have considered or considered in this or that way, how reflective are the tapes of the actual performance (did the crowd respond where we anticipated, did one side balance the other in hornline performance? we know one section needs work, what do several judges say about that moment? Yes, some instructors and admins have egos that don't want their weaknesses known, exaggerated, or exploited. A June tape is different to listen to than an August one, particularly championships. What tapes are best to make the corps members better performers? Always positive and uplifting (not realistic), never affirming (doesn't understand humans)... does the judge speak of possible changes/adaptions and would others listening to the tape surmize the suggestions as edicts, written in stone, or speculation? There are many, many reasons for not releasing tapes and many reasons for not releasing them now. But even at the end of the season, some of these same reasons apply. Does a certain BD soprano have to relive his frack for eternity, bad as he already feels? a 27th rifle on national TV? the Cadet kid(s) who tripped at Whitewater or the tuba player from Crown, the horn player from Boston, any and all the injured who tried to make it off the field. Thinking it is cool during off season to "get 'in the know'" may not be a human enough reason. Edited October 18, 2014 by xandandl 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 The curious side of me would love to hear the tapes, if the tapes shed any real light on the performance. In the past some tapes have been released and they are nothing but a love fest for the corps. I recall one corps releasing a tape and the comments began with "I hope you're relaxed and ready for a great show" and lots of woa! and wows! with a "watch out dude" followed by a "close call." There were no healthy critiques or constructive positive comments. The scores were pretty low and for me, could not be justified by the tape.This was a midseason show and my guess is some may remember the tape and the corps. To be fair, it was combined with a video, no doubt the work of the corps. Now I'm all for positive reinforcement and casual comments, but my guess would be that corps that are fighting for a place in the Top 12 to being the champion want more than kindergarten appropriate comments delivered by a wannabe surfer. Also, while the release of the tapes or a transcript may lead to spirited discussions, especially on DCP, we already go off on tangents when certain drum corps personalities speak or post messages on Twitter or Facebook, so could you imagine the rants if judges tapes were released. To be fair, most judge tapes released are from Finals night so it's only natural for a judge to enjoy what is likely to be the maxed out performance of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Add that to the fact that while a non-profit must be held accountable for its actions and bookkeeping, they are under no obligation to present every last scrap of information to the general public. Publicly traded corporations do a TON of public information 'dumps' for stock holders (see WB's "leak" of DC Comic movie titles/slate which was not announced with a press release bit because of info shared by the company's President on a stock holder photo be conference call) but still do not release all information: nor do they have to. It's ludicrous to expect DCI to release any/all I for just because we want it Yes but I think what they are saying is qualifications of a person or a job review of overall performance of a judge is one thing BUT to expose the actual" private " assessment of a client " ( a corps ) is something entirely different. As others have said IF a corps chooses to expose their evaluation for whatever reason, no problem but other than that I personally think it borders if not crosses a line . I know ( without opening a can of worms ) we live in a world today of entitlement but how much does one expect for a price of a ticket...lol Add that to the fact that while a non-profit must be held accountable for its actions and bookkeeping, they are under no obligation to present every last scrap of information to the general public. Publicly traded corporations do a TON of public information 'dumps' for stock holders (see WB's "leak" of DC Comic movie titles/slate which was not announced with a press release bit because of info shared by the company's President on a stock holder conference call) but still do not release all information: nor do they have to. It's ludicrous to expect DCI to release any/all info just because we want it Edited October 19, 2014 by perc2100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) From one who remembers when judges did not use tapes: One of the major reasons for the tapes was as a pedagological tool to help the instructor(s) better train the performers/marchers (but now we have front ensemble to consider.) It was another tool to make the members better (not just the corps.) Yes, there is ego to be considered on polar ends: are the judges accurate, articulate, insightful, helpful? Is there any observation which the instructor might not have considered or considered in this or that way, how reflective are the tapes of the actual performance (did the crowd respond where we anticipated, did one side balance the other in hornline performance? we know one section needs work, what do several judges say about that moment? Yes, some instructors and admins have egos that don't want their weaknesses known, exaggerated, or exploited. A June tape is different to listen to than an August one, particularly championships. What tapes are best to make the corps members better performers? Always positive and uplifting (not realistic), never affirming (doesn't understand humans)... does the judge speak of possible changes/adaptions and would others listening to the tape surmize the suggestions as edicts, written in stone, or speculation? There are many, many reasons for not releasing tapes and many reasons for not releasing them now. But even at the end of the season, some of these same reasons apply. Does a certain BD soprano have to relive his frack for eternity, bad as he already feels? a 27th rifle on national TV? the Cadet kid(s) who tripped at Whitewater or the tuba player from Crown, the horn player from Boston, any and all the injured who tried to make it off the field. Thinking it is cool during off season to "get 'in the know'" may not be a human enough reason. Exactly! At the end of the day the ONLY purpose of a judge tape is to help the members perform better & designers present a more coherent product to the fans. Not for our curiosity, not to give us insight, but for the invidividual members to do their jobs better. Edited October 19, 2014 by perc2100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Don-O Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Exactly! At the end of the day the ONLY purpose of a judge tape is to help the members perform better & designers present a more coherent product to the fans. Not for our curiosity, not to give us insight, but for the invidividual members to do their jobs better. I can see both sides of this discussion and understand your point. I would like to point out that if done properly and with sensitivity to the performers, judges tapes could also be used to make us better, more informed "consumers" of drum corps. For a little while the Championship DvD's used to come with alternate audio channels where you could listen to judge and designer commentaries. I learned a lot by following along and seeing the show through their eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I can see both sides of this discussion and understand your point. I would like to point out that if done properly and with sensitivity to the performers, judges tapes could also be used to make us better, more informed "consumers" of drum corps. For a little while the Championship DvD's used to come with alternate audio channels where you could listen to judge and designer commentaries. I learned a lot by following along and seeing the show through their eyes. Oh, I agree. As a fan, educator, and judge myself I always like listening to tapes for the analytical benefit as well as educational. I also agree that if fans heard GE tapes they'd possibly have a better understanding for applying the sheets to the design & performance. I also get why DCI and its member corps might not put releasing judge tapes as a priority. I wonder if there was any feedback from anyone when the DVDs used to include judge tapes for the Top 5 (or 6?) that caused DCI to move to stop including the tapes. Maybe judges didn't like putting their tapes out there for everyone to critique, or maybe Directors didn't want to expose their members to even more public scrutiny. Maybe something more sinister; or maybe something as benign as "we didn't care to put the time/effort into adding the extra audio because it doesn't seem to matter as far as sales." I know I've certainly made some not great tapes, or even tapes that directors/staffers disagreed with (though I stood by). I could get that DCI would view it as an extra, unnecessary hassle, though I watched some shows with the judge or designer commentary more than the straight corps music performance because the commentary for more fascinating to me than the actual show! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) I find some of this discussion interesting. Two of the strongest opinions against judges tapes being released are from people who acknowledge having been judges. After listening to some of the judges tapes that have been released, a lot of what is on the tape doesn't really offer very much insight into what is going on during a performance. As someone has already posted, most of what has been released is a lot of gushing over a performance at Finals. Still, there are things that happen during a season that might make someone interested in exactly what was said early season? Phantom 2009 comes to mind. Why did they feel compelled to change half of the drill early season? Anyway, whatever. One of this past seasons biggest judging issues was over what a specific judge was wearing during a show. Edited October 20, 2014 by Lincoln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Still, there are things that happen during a season that might make someone interested in exactly what was said early season? Phantom 2009 comes to mind. Why did they feel compelled to change half of the drill early season? Good point: I suspect early July judges tapes would be REALLY fascinating! Of course, those are probably the tapes least likely to be released into the wild (if they even survived the duration of the summer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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