Rules Congress

[Grandpa]

I have delineated the problems several times and proposed a solution. My posts are there to be read by all - you are trying to redirect this conversation away from synths.

You are also trying to separate them, but they are two sides of the seesaw. On the one end, we have the problems of shows, corps etc. These need to be addressed. On the other end we have the lame attempt to pretend something is being done by adding toys in the pit.

In an earlier post it was stated that kids want these synths, and you yourself indicated it was in the interests of the long term health of DCA to incorporate them - for what, to attract members? Really? That paints the members as spoiled kids who will stamp their feed and won't play without the toys they want. Well band kids are used to electronics, and they are also used to woodwinds - how do you handle the questions about the lack of woodwinds in drum corps? Are there a lot, the way there seem (?) to be re synths?

It's not the members, it's the designers who propose the rule changes. They're the ones who want these changes - not the members, not the audience - a handful of show designers. Tail wags the dog.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Grandpa

[GUARDLING]

I have delineated the problems several times and proposed a solution. My posts are there to be read by all - you are trying to redirect this conversation away from synths.

You are also trying to separate them, but they are two sides of the seesaw. On the one end, we have the problems of shows, corps etc. These need to be addressed. On the other end we have the lame attempt to pretend something is being done by adding toys in the pit.

In an earlier post it was stated that kids want these synths, and you yourself indicated it was in the interests of the long term health of DCA to incorporate them - for what, to attract members? Really? That paints the members as spoiled kids who will stamp their feed and won't play without the toys they want. Well band kids are used to electronics, and they are also used to woodwinds - how do you handle the questions about the lack of woodwinds in drum corps? Are there a lot, the way there seem (?) to be re synths?

It's not the members, it's the designers who propose the rule changes. They're the ones who want these changes - not the members, not the audience - a handful of show designers. Tail wags the dog.

No You are getting it wrong. People have stated that DCA needs to stay relevant and part of this century. IF it means synths or pick a thing, then so be it. ALSO seems like the only feet stomping when looking back at those who do not agree with a change have been done by way more adults then kids.

As far as the question of woodwinds from kids. In all they years Ive done this I dont remember a kid asking, at all. As far as who wants the changes , I think you underestimate audience, members, designers. You have made the statement of who doesnt want something and are speaking for all it seems.

Ive heard these arguments over and over for many decades and how the destruction and mistakes. This is nothing new, it comes with every single change.

You are also assuming that whiny designers are the ones responsible for the changes. It takes way more than a tantrum of a designer to make huge changes. It takes many on board for it to happen.

Edited December 30, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Grandpa]

So of all the band kids that come into drum corps from a world with both synths and woodwinds, they're all clamouring for synths but not one has asked about WWs????

That's - well - interesting...

If the relevance of drum corps hangs on the presence of synths it would have folded up tents years ago. Synths have been around since Tomita and the mighty moog. How many kids have quit because there were no synths in DCA? Were hoards of them waiting until the rule passed before they would deign to join? The only relevance issue is that the introduction of synths may well make DCA irrelevant to a segment of the paying audience. If they vote with their feet on this DCA is screwed.

So, sorry - but I don't buy t the relevance argument. What I see is the genius it took to come up with the Miss Saigon helicopter effect being replaced by the push of a button to kick off a sound file. Drum corps instructors pretty much all work in the band world as well - they just want the same stuff. This isn't member driven - it's staff driven.

[GUARDLING]

So of all the band kids that come into drum corps from a world with both synths and woodwinds, they're all clamouring for synths but not one has asked about WWs????

That's - well - interesting...

If the relevance of drum corps hangs on the presence of synths it would have folded up tents years ago. Synths have been around since Tomita and the mighty moog. How many kids have quit because there were no synths in DCA? Were hoards of them waiting until the rule passed before they would deign to join? The only relevance issue is that the introduction of synths may well make DCA irrelevant to a segment of the paying audience. If they vote with their feet on this DCA is screwed.

So, sorry - but I don't buy t the relevance argument. What I see is the genius it took to come up with the Miss Saigon helicopter effect being replaced by the push of a button to kick off a sound file. Drum corps instructors pretty much all work in the band world as well - they just want the same stuff. This isn't member driven - it's staff driven.

Forthe sake of discussion lets say you are right...AND? ..SO?

You are right about when we were saddled with rules how we had to find ways to create an effect. SO? we also dont dial up phones anymore , use encyclopedias much anymore, etc etc. Music can and is produced way different now than it was even a few years ago. Debate away if it's good or bad BUT it is here.

DCA membership was in a decline for decades. How do I know this , Ive been involved for quite sometime. Membership now is getting younger and younger every year. Nothing like 10 or 20 years ago. debate if thats good or bad. I hate to see a vital 40year old considered old in the activity and wish it werent like that for DCA BUT DCA is attracting a new generation for sure and with that things will and have to IMO change.

Does the relevance of drum corps hang on the presence of synths? maybe not but neither does relevance hang on the presence of the 70s, 80s or some idea that some feel define the activity.

As far as staff driven, well maybe in some form, as I said they dont decide these big changes alone BUT when hasn't staff driven a concept or change , I can go back to the 70s and some pretty controversial shows, concepts, etc etc and some pretty out there staff ( now revered as genius by many ) These visionaries weren't looked at by all very favorably either. No different now.

I think for me I would just rather look at this as a breath of very needed fresh air ( not synths I mean just freshness ) going through DCA rather than a dark cloud of doom and some stale old reason for doing things just because it's the way it's always been.

I think were pretty darn lucky the activity is still around to even have these discussions. It could have gone away many many years ago for far bigger reasons than synths or shows for that matter.

Edited December 30, 2014 by GUARDLING

[MikeD]

Well here again Mike - a few years ago several A&E supporters - perhaps you yourself, I don't recall, were saying if we don't like what DCI is doing, there's always DCA.

Now we're being told we can't have competitive DCA, we can only have Alumni. With all respect to alumni corps, they are not designed to perform at the level of competing corps. They would be the first to agree with me.

So it's great to be told we don't mean a blessed thing to DCI or DCA while being pushed to the sidelines of the activity.

You aren't being pushed to the sidelines, unless you are unwilling to accept changes made over time. It is up to you whether or not you feel alienated. There were those who felt that way in 1971 with Garfield, Madison and Cavies themed shows ...there were letters to the editor of DCN in the early 60's bemoaning the addition of contras as being too much like a band. There was a LOT of "that's not drum corps" when Bayonne came out in 76 with the banana unis. Permitting corps to start anyplace on the field...and then end on the field...very controversial to the old timers of THAT era.

Was it Bayonne's fault? Or those who just could not accept them? Was it the fault of the corps who chose to do themed shows in 71 (Garfield complete with libretto a decade prior to Regiment)? Or those who could not accept such shows? Drum corps are not bugs trapped in amber, frozen for all time at whatever point you want them to be frozen.

[MikeD]

I have delineated the problems several times and proposed a solution. My posts are there to be read by all - you are trying to redirect this conversation away from synths.

The argument is not about synths...it is about remaining current and relevant. Synths are but one element of corps admins desire to remain attractive to potential members and audience. DCA doesn't need the narrow focus of synths this year...or next year...or...whenever...it needs to do whatever it can to remain up-to-date to draw members and audience over time. You can't narrow down the argument to one new instrument. it is the overall concept of what DCA and DCI are now and moving forward that is what the powers-that-be are deciding.

There is little mention of woodwinds at the admin/instructor level, so IMO they are far away. Personally, I think they should have been added long ago, but that is just MHO, which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

[Jeff Ream]

Let me get this straight - synths are the only hope for DCA? Without them, it dies?

by itself? No. is it a piece of the puzzle?

yes.

[Jeff Ream]

Not getting into the Amps/no amps argument but anyone have an idea how many age outs go to DCA corps?

in the east, you'll see kids go to DCA, then DCI, then come back more than you will see elsewhere.

[Jeff Ream]

Okay, if we are going to have a discussion, we first need to get past this. I think that in most cases, when someone says their line-in-the-sand change will "kill" drum corps, they are merely stating that "drum corps", as they define it, will be gone as a result - not that the changed activity will repel every last fan and go extinct. Other marching arts have added electronics without repelling every last spectator.

Since you mention DCI, we should look at them. Yes, attendance is up a bit in 2014. What does that have to do with A&E? DCI made those changes 5 to 10 years ago, and attendance trends were not optimistic at those times. As for new corps, we did just see a growth spurt in 2014 after many years without. Again, I do not see how electronics has anything to do with that. In fact, the growth is focused in remote areas far away from the DCI home base, generated by corps with remarkably limited tour schedules.

I agree. But how? It seems that the new business model for DCA is to stay five car lengths behind DCI. Is that really their best strategy?

Back in the 1990s, DCA was very smart about developing class A. Regional expansion was another brilliant concept. DCA actually WAS growing when those ideas were their focus. Looking at the new DCI corps, there is evidence of further growth potential for whichever circuit reaches out to remote regions, and to programs with schedule constraints that conflict with traditional dates for world championships. DCI is making progress there. DCA, not any more.

You make it sound as if changes like A&E are necessary to draw people to the activity. But how has that worked out so far?

But DCA has not been sticking to tradition. They have been making all the same changes DCI has made, and apparently they are not impacting attendance positively.

DCI hit their low point in 2010. since then, it's been climbing up, surely and slowly. Why? giving kids the same thing design wise what they can get in the fall, but with far more quality. electronics is part of that design push.

Should DCA stay 5 years behind? No, it should be there now. But, in DCA, you have some budgetary challenges DCI doesn't have. DCI at times is to quick to change or adapt, DCA too slow.

A&E is part of the puzzle that has slowly but surely led to growth in DCI. Now, IMO, the next thing DCA needs is live feeds during the summer from a show or 2. Allow people that don't or can't travel to see a regular season show get a taste mid season.

and you're right, DCA hasn't stuck to tradition as much as many would like. And think, who proposed the change? Cabs and CV. That's right, the one corps that is all about tradition proposed the change....the Cabs

[Jeff Ream]

Okay, so a corps that used hundreds of spoken words in their show had to explain to their members why electronics were okay pre-show, but not mid-show.

None of the kids I have ever spoken to as prospective marchers have ever asked why drum corps did not have A and/or E. When amplified pit and synth became staples, though, I would expect kids with marching band pit experience would have asked.

So do kids ask you why drum corps does not have woodwinds? Do they look at you like you have 4 heads when you explain?

no. most make fun of woodwinds actually.

have you tried to recruit for a corps? Kids aren't dumb. They see what the "big boys" are doing in DCI, and when you told them you couldn't do all of it in DCA, you get weird looks