garfield Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 And kudos to all the kids who are in camp this weekend preparing what should be a great summer of entertainment for all of us, despite our differences. Good gosh, this is the singular point of it all, isn't it? The activity, and those in it, who have succeeded for 40 years by overcoming and, in some cases, ignoring our differences to create a product, an experience, a cult that we all seem to love, support, and partake. DCI should do nothing to take a stand on one side of the law or the other. Per its obligation until it's changed by the Board, it did exactly the correct thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Nice summary Brasso To those who are essentially suggesting to people in groups who aren't in the majority to essentially "deal with it", I humbly suggest you read some history and political philosophy. In what way does it seem right or make sense that those who are numeric minorities shouldn't have a voice in a democracy? John Stuart Mills' thoughts on the Tyranny of the Majority in his classic essay on liberty is a nice start IMHO: http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm IMO, DCI's response was tepid and political. IMO Madison's response was clear, appropriate and corageous. Kudos to the mods for keeping this thread open and kudos to contributors to largely keeping the conversation civil. Snipping Mill is blaspheme, but without knowing the preamble or anything about him... "...there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment..." ...can one actually tell which side of this issue applies to his words? When one stands in their OWN shoes and looks at the world from only THAT perspective, one surely can. But put a foot in the shoe of someone might disagree and then read the paragraph. The brilliance of Mill's libertarian writing is pure but, IMO, he was a better writer than do-er. If those who care about what positions DCI takes want to understand exactly why DCI made the statement they did, which was perfect, IMO, understand the paragraph above and apply it to the mandate of the organization. Edited March 28, 2015 by garfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) When we speak of the respect " for the minority " view,( LGBT position on this ) this is of course a noble and worthy gesture. I assume here that most understand both this Nation's History and the World's history that religious persecution by the State has oftentimes raised its ugly head and the Religious throughout History have been tortured and murdered... with millions refusing to recant their strongly held religious Faith through to their last breath in their torturous death. Whether one believes it was the actual Messiah, or simply " another religious zealot", the fact remains that the State has literally crucified on crosses, those who took positions contrary to the State, and in some cases, that ran counter to the majority secular positions of those in their midst. Yes, there are those who claim religious liberties, yet practice some of the most vile intolerance for those different than themselves. That goes without saying too, of course. . And history is replete with bad things done to people in the name of Religion ( to this very day ). But the secular based State has likewise persecuted good people of Faith as well, throughout History too.. Lets not lose sight of the fact also, that to a much larger population of people of Faith, the state's policies sometimes does indeed intrude on aspects they they genuinely believe is not in the domain of the State, and such policies they genuinely believe do run counter to their genuinely held religious beliefs. Perhaps to some, those beliefs are misguided and wrong headed , and that's an entirely understandable position as well. There are agitators in the country on BOTH sides of this political hot button issue. But lets not also lose sight of the fact that there are reasonable and responsible and tolerant people on BOTH sides of this issue as well. When one's strongly held belief system ( religious or otherwise ) runs up against a societal, secular movement, there is bound to be some friction and some turmoil. But the rabble rousers on both sides of this issue are the minority. Lets not forget that. One hopes that the majority in the nation can come together to find a way to make both sides on this issue co-exist in a civil manner that allows both to feel their rights.. on BOTH sides of this issue... are not eroded by the strong arm of the Government. That might be an unrealistic expectation of mine. But thats my optimistic hope on this anyway. As for DCI's response to this out in Indiana, in my opinion, it was reasonable, measured, response. Edited March 28, 2015 by BRASSO 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Re: the quote function in IE. I posted this work around in the DCP Member Service Center. http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php/topic/161182-dcp-forums-and-internet-explorer-11/?p=3417540 Oh man, Thanks for that! I've been testing Chrome and can't figure out fonts. Sorry if my text seems small - I'm not exactly sure what Chrome is "zooming". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecamburn Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 ...can you actually tell which side of this issue applies to his words? When you stand in YOUR shoes and look at the world from YOUR perspective, you surely can. But put a foot in the shoe of someone you think you disagree with and then read the paragraph. If you want to understand exactly why DCI made the statement they did, which was perfect, IMO, understand the paragraph above and apply it to mandate of the organization. I was relating Mill's ideas to some of the discussion in this thread, not the broader issue. I saw multiple posts on this thread where readers appeared to try to minimize the importance of the views of folks who might be affected by the law, particularly LGBT folks, because such folks were small in number. Mill's ideas in that passage deal directly with the idea that's important not to minimize the importance of the views of folks in the minority just because they are few in number. Let me be clear. I agree with Mills on this point. Others may not. Good thing we live in a democracy eh? My point about DCI was a completely separate point and was, as I tried to indicate a big, fat opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Oh man, Thanks for that! I've been testing Chrome and can't figure out fonts. Sorry if my text seems small - I'm not exactly sure what Chrome is "zooming". Your text size is find on this end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I was relating Mill's ideas to some of the discussion in this thread, not the broader issue. I saw multiple posts on this thread where readers appeared to try to minimize the importance of the views of folks who might be affected by the law, particularly LGBT folks, because such folks were small in number. Mill's ideas in that passage deal directly with the idea that's important not to minimize the importance of the views of folks in the minority just because they are few in number. Let me be clear. I agree with Mills on this point. Others may not. Good thing we live in a democracy eh? My point about DCI was a completely separate point and was, as I tried to indicate a big, fat opinion. Oh, sorry, I wasn't directing my last to you particularly. I'll go change the "You"s to "Oneself"s to clear that up. <done> You and I seem to agree on the importance of Mill's words. Funny, I wonder if we agree on the broader issue but it doesn't really matter. If we both convince DCI to actually act on Mill's words, we've both succeeded and, in our opinions, so has the activity, right? Edited March 28, 2015 by garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) As I sat here this morning, having my morning coffee (which, being Saturday, means I didn't have to slam it down for once, thus burning my mouth) and reading (and re-reading) this entire thread...twice...the overriding thought which has come to my mind is this: If the rest of humanity could share, discuss, differ, agree, and argue over its' myriad problems, concerns, petty differences and meaningful differentiations with even half the degree of respect, equanimity, and tolerance I've seen over 27 pages of opinion from individuals -- some (or many) of whom, I'd bet, haven't even met face-to-face once in their lives -- such as this group...well...I'd feel a ###### lot more secure about the world I currently live in. No, this isn't any kind of Pollyanna "Kum-Bah-Ya" moment. But by ######, people...everyone needs a pat on the back once in a while -- especially when it's earned and deserved. i do know that my coffee is tasting just a little bit better than usual right now. Thanks. EDIT: And sorry for the couple of "XXXXXX"'s...funny how the difference of one little letter (an r for an m) can be the one which makes one appear either a reasoned individual or a mindless zealot. Edited March 28, 2015 by HornTeacher 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) And lest anyone still believes that this law is really about religious freedom, it has become painfully clear what's going on and who specifically this law is targeting. This, from the lobbying group who championed the law: http://www.advanceamerica.com/blog/?p=1849 (Notice that they only mention Christians. Strange to think why other religions were excluded. It makes one wonder.) Wait. This doesn't prove one thing or another except that a Christian lobbying group is pleased with the law's passage. And there's...what...wrong with that. The law works in a way that might benefit them and they publicly shout victory. Jeebus, the LGBT community here holds a parade in its own honor each and every friggin' year! But somehow a Christian group claims a little victory for itself in a press release and they somehow define the application of the law by the judiciary? Really? The state's law is written around "Religious Freedom", not "Christian Freedom". If you believe in the axiom that "the decision that ticks off everyone is probably the right one", it's hard to argue that revelers are proclaiming a "Christian" victory. Edited March 28, 2015 by garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecamburn Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) If we both convince DCI to actually act on Mill's words, we've both succeeded and, in our opinions, so has the activity, right? Yeah, that's the tricky thing about issues like this. My guess is that most fair minded folks believe that the views and freedom of racial minorities, LGBT folks, and members of various religions should *all* be respected. As you know, that's a very "Millsian" idea. The challenge arises when, as with this situation, worldviews, cultural practices, etc. of different groups come into conflict. Given such complexity, I do *understand* why DCI tried hard to not offend anyone in their statement. But I don't have to like it. :-) Edited March 28, 2015 by ecamburn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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