Judges using a tenth to rank corps/leaving room between groups

[westcoastblue]

A thread about the Clifton, NJ show developed into a discussion about leaving room to squeeze corps in between groups that go on before corps yet to perform. I thought it interesting and deserving of its own thread.

Below are the last three posts. Previous ones leading to the discussion are on the Clifton show thread.

I agree with the bottom post here from phan771, and like many have said, judging is tough enough between good groups, it has got to be expecially tough when you are dealing with those corps that are neck and neck. I would not want to have to decide those situations.

Other's input?

Tobias, on 07 Jul 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

westcoastblue, on 07 Jul 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Agreed. Numbers management is about ranking. Crown came on and brass gets a number. BD follows and is ranked under or over Crown but room is left for Cadets to be fit in there.





Are you refering to the tenth-thenth-tenth thing? Look at how often that happens, including that same night by other judges. I don't see the problem, especially if the groups are truly perfoming at the same level with the same level book. If that is the case the judge then has to look at the value of one tenth of a point and use that to avoid ties. You find that difference that you think does exist at that show and then write down what you feel you can honestly justfy. I think it really exciting that this early in the season we have judges having to use the value of a tenth to separate groups. It is saying that the next nigt, and in this particular case, any one of those three brass lines could beat the other. That makes drum corps more fun to follow and hopefully the entertainment value go up. It has to be tough. I would not want to have to make those close decisions.

phan771, on 07 Jul 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I see your point, but consider some scenarios:

If you think BD is two or three tenths above Crown on both/either side of the sheet, you do have room for Cadets in between. No problems. But if you do that just to have room on both subcaptions (not a "true" rating), that is 4-5 tenths total, enough for one judge to call the show. And, remembering that though trying to avoid reading recaps or to have per-show bias, every judge going into this show knew it would be a tight race.

Or, you right down exactly what you think the differece is between Crown and BD. You know that leaves little room for Cadets in there, but it does leave room and allows for a one tenth total spread if he felt that was appropriate:

Was-

Crown 81, 80 = 16.1

BD 82, 81 = 16.3

Cadets 83, 82 = 16.5

Could have fit Cadets in with:

81, 81 = 16.2

82, 80 = 16.2

80, 82 = 16.2

or other combination, though a subcaption spread given just for the total spread gives the wrong message and falsely represents the judge's exact take on what he heard.

Write down true score for BD, being fair and true to where things were in relation to Crown. Place Cadets where they belong in ranking using appropriate rating as close as possible. Avoid false spreads.

I get the argument about leaving room in both subcaptions, but think there is a lot to consider, and especially when the groups are this strong. This early in the season, I would want to know to the tenth exactly how a judge thinks I compare to my competitive peers, knowing that winning it all or coming in second is often decided by those same tenths.

Edited by phan771, Today, 03:02 PM.

Edited July 7, 2015 by westcoastblue

[xandandl]

What about Jeff Ream's accusation of poor numbers management (in same thread and then restated in his post about the DCA Clifton show in the DCA forum)???

[Cleveland1]

Placement at prelims is definitely a major influencer on whether a corps can really move up. And the prelims order is determined by regional scores right?

So if, for example, SCV is 5th at prelims. They will unlikely be awarded anything higher than a 19.7 in percussion because it would limit BD, Cadets, and Bluecoats ability to outscore fairly. Unless the judge is okay with being forced to award a 20 in percussion. An example, in 2010 Phantom was 6th overall and their percussion was first with a 19.6. Everyone else was below, but the judge likely had to give himself room in the event that other corps were deserving of a better score.

I am not sure how much this sort of thing matters during the season, in between regionals.

[corpsband]

What about Jeff Ream's accusation of poor numbers management (in same thread and then restated in his post about the DCA Clifton show in the DCA forum)???

lol

[corpsband]

I get the argument about leaving room in both subcaptions, but think there is a lot to consider, and especially when the groups are this strong. This early in the season, I would want to know to the tenth exactly how a judge thinks I compare to my competitive peers, knowing that winning it all or coming in second is often decided by those same tenths.

Small show. Experienced panel. I don't think they 'accidentally" had subcaption ties.

You shouldn't "force" spreads just in the name of "numbers management".

Larger shows are going to demand more careful numbers but "number management" in the end means don't create ties in your caption. The 'no subcaption tie' guideline is just that -- a guideline. Judges who feel the need to create 4 tenths spread in the name of numbers management when they think it's just a 1 tenth spread are just as guilty of bad numbers management.

Personally -- since these scores are all computer-tabulated anyway -- judges should be permitted to write down as many numbers as they want to the right of the decimal point (ie artbitrary precision).

Bring it on Ream :-)

[jwillis35]

Placement at prelims is definitely a major influencer on whether a corps can really move up. (snip)

So if, for example, SCV is 5th at prelims. They will unlikely be awarded anything higher than a 19.7 in percussion because it would limit BD, Cadets, and Bluecoats ability to outscore fairly.

Not necessarily. A good percussion judge knows a 19.9 when they hear it/see it. If SCV hit that level, they would get credit. After all, BD, Cadets, Coats, and others could score lower, or if equally amazing could tie. And, of course, you do leave that one extra tenth for a perfect 20 just in case someone really NAILS their book. But by the end of the season these judges know how these lines are performing, what they are capable of, etc. Clearly they will evaluate the corps' performance (in this case percussion) on what they do that day. So if someone does hit that 19.9, great...I believe they will award it. There is also the chance that a leading group, perhaps one that has been high in percussion all summer, lays down a stinker. I've seen judges on many occasions give a much lower score for such a reason. And often when that happens many on DCP cry foul about that because corps X has been scoring higher.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the best judges score by the performance. They have an idea of a C level, B level, or A level performance (17s, 18s, 19s). They understand box 3, 4, 5 demand, and they definitely can tell when a performance is top-notch with almost no mistakes.

Look, Phantom won high percussion back in 2010 and they were 7th place overall. I still believe these sorts of things can happen. Often they don't, but then again usually those top 4 or 5 corps have NO weaknesses. Today I believe this is one of the differences from years ago.

Back in 1983 Garfield won the title, but they were still weak in percussion. Even in 1984 they won the title but were something like 7th or 9th in percussion. The Oakland Crusaders from Ochobicoke, Canada used to win lots of percussion titles at shows, but often didn't have the brass to make top 12.

These days it's almost impossible to make top 5 without being solid across the board. And top 3, you better have no weaknesses. This year that's BD, Cadets, and Bluecoats to me. Carolina and SCV have a few minor weaknesses, nothing major. So we don't see as much variance in captions because the consistency is so good among the top units.

Edited July 7, 2015 by jwillis35

[Cleveland1]

You make fair points jwillis35, but how often are there caption ties? Arent they discouraged from giving ties? I do believe if a 5th place SCV throws down the percussion performance of the year, that they will be rewarded. But any of BD, Cadets, or Bloo could also beat them in percussion. Giving a 19.9 with 3 other top percussion sections left is risky since 3 tenths could be a big difference.

Typically i believe judges get it right though.

[jwillis35]

You make fair points jwillis35, but how often are there caption ties? Arent they discouraged from giving ties? I do believe if a 5th place SCV throws down the percussion performance of the year, that they will be rewarded. But any of BD, Cadets, or Bloo could also beat them in percussion. Giving a 19.9 with 3 other top percussion sections left is risky since 3 tenths could be a big difference.

Typically i believe judges get it right though.

Yes, totally agree, but I think that's where the judges' prior knowledge of those lines come into play, since we're talking about end-of-season scoring. And yes, if one of those lines completely surprises the judge, then there will be a tie if unavoidable. That can still happen, and is usually broken in other areas, like Music GE, etc. But again, by that point in the season (like last year for instance), the judge is reasonably sure that not much is going to top SCV. That doesn't mean he/she will just award them the drum title, but they will know which corps truly have a shot and can work the numbers from there.

Hey, if someone just magically nails their show to the nth degree then I guess that judge is screwed...but how often does that really happen. By that point of the season the consistency is so good in terms of performance that a judge is getting a fair and accurate idea of performance and capability.

Edited July 7, 2015 by jwillis35

[jwillis35]

What I will add to this is:

1. Early-season judging is likely more difficult with fluctuation of performances, changing of the books, edits, injuries, etc. Thankfully you have more room for the top numbers because nobody is near perfect in June or July.

2. End of season judging is difficult too, but judges have more information on each corps on how they perform...both their best and their average performances. They are likely better at knowing the expected range each section might perform too, yet also knowing what they may be capable of.

[Tobias]

What I will add to this is:

1. Early-season judging is likely more difficult with fluctuation of performances, changing of the books, edits, injuries, etc. Thankfully you have more room for the top numbers because nobody is near perfect in June or July.

2. End of season judging is difficult too, but judges have more information on each corps on how they perform...both their best and their average performances. They are likely better at knowing the expected range each section might perform too, yet also knowing what they may be capable of.

Great point. Top dogs in any caption, should be consistent by end of season and the judge says, wow they nailed it or not.