Maneuvah Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 we are really debating greatness vs. greatness I personally (as a Cadet fan) though Cadets show felt flat vs. the other top 4 - pains me to say that but I think some of the staging and decisions made and the guard just didn't gel as much as they were hoping the last 3 weeks. The other 3 rapidly improved in terms of GE and Cadets program just sat there. Still GREAT. But you can tell from the crowd it just wasn't selling as well as the others. JMO Narrative, meaning, and emotion sell. Abstraction - especially abstraction from music that was written for the most profound narrative, meaning, and emotion - will make everyone feel flat. Because the show concept itself was flat. If the Cadets had a great show concept this year, even with their hard run-and-gun drill, etc., they not only would have medaled, they would have likely gotten gold. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) George, I made the same argument about Crown's battery. Their battery is better than 99.95% of the groups out there, but compared to their peers, it is a weakness. The same can be said for this year's Cadets guard. Too much content for them perhaps? Maybe, but I didn't think they sucked. I found their contribution wonderful especially after the color change. Maybe some heavy research into WGI is warranted to glean some ideas. I loved all of the top 12, and I found finals to be quite entertaining with the penalties and the come from behind BD victory. Good stuff. Very entertaining! Was there a disconnect between the audience and the design? I can't attest to that because I understood it. It's subjective like most things in drum corps. Perhaps the idea of the performance being the effect wasn't communicated well enough from the Cadets. Who is to say? I, for one, do not think the MMs efforts were wasted. They asked for this challenge, and they met it. It says a lot about them. I don't think Cadets alumni and fans should be wringing their hands over this year. The organization is strong. It's growing. I hope in the offseason, the design staff does some serious study into what Bloo, BD, and Crown are doing. Study WGI carefully. Keep the focus on music quality. Simplify visual demand a touch, so it's spot clean by finals. Obviously, pick a concept lit majors can understand because it looks like there are no math lovers on the judging panels. HA! Edited August 12, 2015 by wallace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Rather than The Power of Ten perhaps they could have dubbed the show I Feel the Need for Speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) we are really debating greatness vs. greatness I personally (as a Cadet fan) though Cadets show felt flat vs. the other top 4 - pains me to say that but I think some of the staging and decisions made and the guard just didn't gel as much as they were hoping the last 3 weeks. The other 3 rapidly improved in terms of GE and Cadets program just sat there. Still GREAT. But you can tell from the crowd it just wasn't selling as well as the others. JMO George, that's true except Cadets were on fire Saturday night and I don't believe the judges "judged" that performance but hot caught up in the momentum of the last 1-2 weeks. Edited August 12, 2015 by Tobias 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maneuvah Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 George, I made the same argument about Crown's battery. Their battery is better than 99.95% of the groups out there, but compared to their peers, it is a weakness. The same can be said for this year's Cadets guard. Too much content for them perhaps? Maybe, but I didn't think they sucked. I found their contribution wonderful especially after the color change. Maybe some heavy research into WGI is warranted to glean some ideas. I loved all of the top 12, and I found finals to be quite entertaining with the penalties and the come from behind BD victory. Good stuff. Very entertaining! Was there a disconnect between the audience and the design? I can't attest to that because I understood it. It's subjective like most things in drum corps. Perhaps the idea of the performance being the effect wasn't communicated well enough from the Cadets. Who is to say? I, for one, do not think the MMs efforts were wasted. They asked for this challenge, and they met it. It says a lot about them. I don't think Cadets alumni and fans should be wringing their hands over this year. The organization is strong. It's growing. I hope in the offseason, the design staff does some serious study into what Bloo, BD, and Crown are doing. Study WGI carefully. Keep the focus on music quality. Simplify visual demand a touch, so it's spot clean by finals. Obviously, pick a concept lit majors can understand because it looks like there are no math lovers on the judging panels. HA! Not gonna work, based on the experience of most years since 2000. The design staff SHOULD NOT STUDY WHAT THE BLUECOATS, CROWN AND BD ARE DOING - and yes I'm shouting - if they want to be the Cadets. The Cadets design team should formally solicit ideas from the scores and scores of alumni, fans, and future MMs with the creativity to offer coherent design concepts and ideas. Arguably, no organization has that kind of engaged alumni and fans. Evidence: the Cadets thread here on DCP every single year is much larger than any other corps. Sure, some of that's from critics, but BD has at least as many critics as Cadets. The Cadets need to Know Themselves. But that doesn't mean navel gazing and closed innovation. Their design team is simply not as effective as other top 5 corps. Evidence: the MMs talent outperforming show concepts most years since 2000. GE being the major weakness. That means subpar design, nothing more, nothing less. Until I hear a better idea from someone about how to improve the Cadets design team's show concept development process - better than Open Innovation - I'll continue to be pessimistic about next year, and the year after, and after that. The Cadets should be the leaders in innovation, creativity, demand, and achievement. If they're not, there's a problem. No excuses. Ten years ago, Crown and Bluecoats weren't even sniffing top five. Now they're on a finals winning streak versus the Cadets. That's a problem. Change is necessary. Change is good. Innovation on the field requires innovation in the design team's approach to design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Not gonna work, based on the experience of most years since 2000. The design staff SHOULD NOT STUDY WHAT THE BLUECOATS, CROWN AND BD ARE DOING - and yes I'm shouting - if they want to be the Cadets. The Cadets design team should formally solicit ideas from the scores and scores of alumni, fans, and future MMs with the creativity to offer coherent design concepts and ideas. Arguably, no organization has that kind of engaged alumni and fans. Evidence: the Cadets thread here on DCP every single year is much larger than any other corps. Sure, some of that's from critics, but BD has at least as many critics as Cadets. The Cadets need to Know Themselves. But that doesn't mean navel gazing and closed innovation. Their design team is simply not as effective as other top 5 corps. Evidence: the MMs talent outperforming show concepts most years since 2000. GE being the major weakness. That means subpar design, nothing more, nothing less. Until I hear a better idea from someone about how to improve the Cadets design team's show concept development process - better than Open Innovation - I'll continue to be pessimistic about next year, and the year after, and after that. The Cadets should be the leaders in innovation, creativity, demand, and achievement. If they're not, there's a problem. No excuses. Ten years ago, Crown and Bluecoats weren't even sniffing top five. Now they're on a finals winning streak versus the Cadets. That's a problem. Change is necessary. Change is good. Innovation on the field requires innovation in the design team's approach to design. I appreciate your passion for DCI, but don't you think you're taking this whole thing way too seriously? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallace Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Yeah, throwing out the baby with the bath water usually creates more problems that it alleviates. The Cadets aren't broken. They do know themselves. YEA is growing and affecting more young people positively every year. That is their primary goal; it's in their mission statement for God's sake! Championships have always been the icing on the cake. There is no need to overhaul the organization. Sure, design needs to be tweaked, but we're talking tenths of points here not falling out of the top 12. That is Chicken Little talk. Research and study... Edited August 13, 2015 by wallace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDz Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 My respect for George Hopkins and David Gibbs has nothing to do with first or fourth place, or design difficulty, or execution. It has to do with continuing to run an organization that selects 150 young men and women and instills in them a sense of camaraderie, loyalty, leadership, and more; an organization that assumes responsibility for those kids 24/7 under the most demanding of circumstances, looking out for the health and general well being, while honing their individual and collective skills that reminds me so much of that commercial for USMC where the piece of metal is heated and shaped into a saber at the side of a squared-away Marine. Take a look at every corps that went on tour or mini-tour. Behind each is a George Hopkins or a David Gibbs. As citizens of the USA, and International, we owe them a debt of gratitude for shaping our future. Are the Blue Devils really "better" than Pioneer? I doubt that David Gibbs would say that..... in fact, the Pioneer experience at The Alamodome with their own busses, the charter busses, the 2-point penalty for being the first corps on the schedule and the last to make it to the field, THAT was the "hardest show of the year," and they aced it..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onionhead Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Dirt ??? they took home 1st in brass and 2nd in percussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Dirt ??? they took home 1st in brass and 2nd in percussion. Visually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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