Hardest show ever - Cadets 2015?

[chris ncsu]

Thanks for the comment. One question: I've been attending finals consecutively since 1989, and the phenomenon of the reduced volume at Finals is not a new one. It seems to have occurred many, but not all years, compared to early season volumes. One exception: In 2007 in the Rose Bowl the Cadets were plenty loud, and I was high up and far from the field (as all were in that stadium). Other years, not so much. So my question is, how much of the volume issue at LOS was attributable to the acoustics and how much to a possible decision by Cadets' staff to sacrifice volume for tone quality and dynamics?

I've complained here and there before about Cadets seeming quieter than other corps, since at least 2005. There've been exceptions, and IMO it's gotten better the last few years.

But, I really do NOT believe they made an adjustment going into Champs. They've practiced all year (as all corps do) for balance and consistency as a musical ensemble -- to start messing with the dynamics of a whole show is dangerous.

[xandandl]

Thanks for the comment. One question: I've been attending finals consecutively since 1989, and the phenomenon of the reduced volume at Finals is not a new one. It seems to have occurred many, but not all years, compared to early season volumes. One exception: In 2007 in the Rose Bowl the Cadets were plenty loud, and I was high up and far from the field (as all were in that stadium). Other years, not so much. So my question is, how much of the volume issue at LOS was attributable to the acoustics and how much to a possible decision by Cadets' staff to sacrifice volume for tone quality and dynamics?

Thanks for the comment. One question: I've been attending finals consecutively since 1989, and the phenomenon of the reduced volume at Finals is not a new one. It seems to have occurred many, but not all years, compared to early season volumes. One exception: In 2007 in the Rose Bowl the Cadets were plenty loud, and I was high up and far from the field (as all were in that stadium). Other years, not so much. So my question is, how much of the volume issue at LOS was attributable to the acoustics and how much to a possible decision by Cadets' staff to sacrifice volume for tone quality and dynamics?

I recall 2007 being not only an open air contest but one on grass rather than filler and artificial turf which absorb sound differently from grass. In fact, each of the types of artificial turf have their own reflection standard of sound if one observes enough contests. Tuning of instruments for competitive contests must now include not only the instrument, humidity, stadium architecture, but field texture as well as the indoor/outdoor differential. The challenge to Michael Terry and the concert french horn tuning was worth an Ott award of its own right.

2007 was also one of the finest Cadet horn lines of the modern era. How the horns had to be heard around the narration was also a major consideration. 2015 was a series of different challenges. Horn folks would be better able to compare and explain than I am.

While BD may be accused of playing to the sheets, I think most finalists also play to the personalities of the judges and what part of the sheet each judge has a tendency to favor in evaluation. Few are blank slates with no known proclivities and favorite notions. Cadets adjust accordingly. That being said,for Cadets, Gino in his pre-show talk to the hornline has a tendency to remind them to be musicians still no matter how excited they and the crowd get for finals. The visual demands also challenge the focus and thus the volume.

Edited August 15, 2015 by xandandl

[cadet93]

Took a break from DCP, but this thread has been an interesting read.

As far as difficult shows, I agree Crown '12, Cadets '97, Star '91 would be my top 3.

Regarding Cadets show design.....

I started the "Cadets and Innovation" topic after the first couple weeks of the season when Cadets were sitting in second behind BD but consistently above Crown and Coats. Then they started winning in the middle of the season and everyone said.....I don't see a problem blah blah.

The issues are with how to evolve their identity to match what is currently being rewarded by the judging community. I hate to keep harping on it, but body movement is an area that epitomizes the differences to me.

Cadets look stiff while BD and Crown look layered and organic.

One piece of advice, please take fans out of feeling like they are at School. History, Math, please no science show next year.

Curious to see what they come up with next year, I think they really need to add someone to the programming team. Someone like Wes Cartwright from Broken Arrow would be great anyone know if he does any designing in DCI anymore, or only works with Broken Arrow and TX bands.

Edited August 15, 2015 by cadet93

[BDCorno]

While BD may be accused of playing to the sheets, I think most finalists also play to the personalities of the judges and what part of the sheet each judge has a tendency to favor in evaluation. Few are blank slates with no known proclivities and favorite notions. Cadets adjust accordingly. That being said,for Cadets, Gino in his pre-show talk to the hornline has a tendency to remind them to be musicians still no matter how excited they and the crowd get for finals. The visual demands also challenge the focus and thus the volume.

I really reject this thought that ANY of the top corps "play to the sheets". I can tell you that BD certainly doesn't. It's not to say that the design staffs aren't aware of what are the parameters on the sheets are, but if you tried to design a program that way, you'd fail miserably. These people are professionals with years of experience in the activity. They may have an innate sense of where the activity is at and where it's going, but design of their shows doesn't revolve around the judging system. In any event, the sheets are so over-generalized and vague, it's a free for all and not worth the time to dowse what will or won't "work". BD, Crown, Coats, Cadets, SCV and most of the top corps have an identity and direction, and they'll pretty well stick to innovation within those boundaries. These groups exist on that top tier due to excellence and consistency. All of them perform their shows consistently, and I don't know of any of them asking their groups to do anything different at Indy. Listening more closely, yes.

I sat in 140 and then 240 for the shows this year, and found Cadets to be plenty loud. There is a substantial difference in volume moving up one level, and I'm sure there are anomalies of this sort all over LOS. I've heard the bottom of the 600's is a tough area for reverb and volume. I've also heard that the best sound up there is in the very back row at the top of the stadium. I'm sure the volume perception is mostly the stadium, and likely not the corps.

[BDCorno]

Took a break from DCP, but this thread has been an interesting read.

As far as difficult shows, I agree Crown '12, Cadets '97, Star '91 would be my top 3.

Regarding Cadets show design.....

I started the "Cadets and Innovation" topic after the first couple weeks of the season when Cadets were sitting in second behind BD but consistently above Crown and Coats. Then they started winning in the middle of the season and everyone said.....I don't see a problem blah blah.

The issues are with how to evolve their identity to match what is currently being rewarded by the judging community. I hate to keep harping on it, but body movement is an area that epitomizes the differences to me.

Cadets look stiff while BD and Crown look layered and organic.

One piece of advice, please take fans out of feeling like they are at School. History, Math, please no science show next year.

Curious to see what they come up with next year, I think they really need to add someone to the programming team. Someone like Wes Cartwright from Broken Arrow would be great anyone know if he does any designing in DCI anymore, or only works with Broken Arrow and TX bands.

I don't know how you felt about it, but I thought the second half of the year revolved around constant uniform change rumors, addition of props, and pretty much anything other than the corps itself. Might this have had a deleterious effect on the "buzz" about the program, the music, and the performance? I wonder. All the talk early was about the program, then it was all uniforms, all the time. I don't think Hopkins did the corps any favors. The black uniforms tended to deemphasize the flashier look that dovetailed with the type of drill they did, and the corps sort of melted into the field instead of standing out against it. They surely took "high props"...I counted 61 pieces or props that were brought onto the field for finals. Might be some kind of a record. I'm not sure the expense of everything even came close to equaling the effect. Just my $.02.

[Tim K]

Regarding Cadets staff being together for so long, something that is true with Blue Devils. The length of time together is not necessarily a problem, nor is the age of staff members. Though the young often have great new ideas, the belief that all new and innovative ideas come from the young is wrong. So too is the belief that only experience can produce something that woks. How a group, works as a team, how open the team is to new ideas while not discarding the tried and true, unless it become an obstacle, and how willing the team is to take risks is what produces innovative ideas. Cadets are able to muster the ideas and the basic playbook, but it somewhat doesn't produce the intended end results. It's not for lack of trying--they produce a variety of shows year after year, but something seems to happen just at finish time. Perhaps the "gene pool" needs to be expanded a bit, but this will not be a solution if the person or people are different faces with the same points of views ads those already in place.

This past year was the most exciting year competitively I have seen in many years, and the top corps were in excellent form. though we'll have to let the dust settle a bit to decide if we saw the best ever from any of them (may be hard to do if we don't have DVD's ), but Cadets had potential to medal, and at some points of the year appeared to have the potential to take it all, but it didn't happen, and I don't think it's just about black uniforms. They have to ask themselves tough questions, but will they?

[Cappybara]

I don't know how you felt about it, but I thought the second half of the year revolved around constant uniform change rumors, addition of props, and pretty much anything other than the corps itself. Might this have had a deleterious effect on the "buzz" about the program, the music, and the performance? I wonder. All the talk early was about the program, then it was all uniforms, all the time. I don't think Hopkins did the corps any favors. The black uniforms tended to deemphasize the flashier look that dovetailed with the type of drill they did, and the corps sort of melted into the field instead of standing out against it. They surely took "high props"...I counted 61 pieces or props that were brought onto the field for finals. Might be some kind of a record. I'm not sure the expense of everything even came close to equaling the effect. Just my $.02.

Some kind of record? BD had 100 poles on the field in 2013 and that wasn't even the extent of all their props lol

[Photographer Jim]

What "I wish" is that BD would perform shows that were as demanding as Crown, Coats, or especially Cadets, and then see who actually is better. BD winning the Sanford is laughable, for example. Cadets book was harder, and the drill/movement demands on the Cadets drumline was arguably twice that of the Devils.

Yes, BD's show concept was great, and the staged design very clever. Much more coherent and impactful than the Cadets.

But to pretend that BD's show isn't aimed at the judges by deftly managing risk and playing to the sheets every single year is willful ignorance. They win because that's all they care about. Don't believe me? Talk to a MM or alumnus. Ever since the 80s, all they care about is the rings. Whatever it takes to get yet another, they'll do. That's not a huge knock on the organization, because they are able to consistently do that better than anyone, but to imply that they're somehow playing to the audience, like maybe Madison, is just silly.

Having had a number of students in my classes during the 80s and 90s who marched BD' I can emphatically say that your depiction of these kids is not only dead wrong, but is also insulting in a way that they most definitely don't deserve.

[HockeyDad]

Taken in the context of its time, the instrumentation, the lack of support available from the percussion section (no mallet instruments), I would offer up 1973 Argonne Rebels as being right up there in difficulty. That show was 5-10 years ahead of its time.

[CACTSC]

Taken in the context of its time, the instrumentation, the lack of support available from the percussion section (no mallet instruments), I would offer up 1973 Argonne Rebels as being right up there in difficulty. That show was 5-10 years ahead of its time.

Certainly the brass book!