8.22.15 ACTUAL Clifton unBiased review.

[BigW]

yknow, i just don't understand reading a review that's cuddly & stating that the performance was fantastic, when notes are shanked, intonation is off, and feet are out of time. why lower the standards of quality? this is an activity about precision. Or a review that only says, they performed well. Can we get any elaboration on that?

As I more or less said in another thread, I could go full-tilt adjudicator, pull out my .50 cal sniper rifle, and do this like I was paid to judge the show and not sit back and just enjoy it. From my point of view, I'm not driving 180 miles one way, spending 80 bucks on a ticket and spending 8+hours on site watching 12+ performances to Scope and Drop everyone like Garrus in Mass Effect unless it's absolutely coyote horrid. Until I started to really get exhausted later in the show, my notebook's filled with performance issues. In modern adjudication, one is supposed to talk about what's good as well as what's wrong. I figure between the two of us we get balance.

You do a great job, I mean it! It's just not the way I feel I need to roll here. I think I have made my points where I have needed to over time. I'd rather drop a note tied to a rock from my B-52 than drop an Arc Light.

I think too, you were a lot lower down than I was. The different perspective enabled you to lock on to feet, bad notes/releases, etc., which is... and this has been a bone of contention and discussion here from several folks- Why they want the judges off the track/ field in DCA. My guess is that they want the contest to be judged from the perspective of the paying audience and for the sake of entertainment, period. Some scholastic circuits want them on the field because their main focus is on education and the competitors like and desire to have that input to help better develop and educate their students in a more direct fashion.

It also means a lot of the issues you speak of don't get hammered as hard because they're more the realm of individual adjudication, not ensemble. I would think the argument from staff would be that they'd rather spend rehearsal time on Ensemble issues over Individual for that very reason. Kind of like the five-foot rule when you look at an antique car. If the car looks great from 5 feet away or when you stand off and look at it, for the most part you're fine. But get closer and see the swirls/scratches in the paint, the pitted chrome, the crack in the rubber around the glass.... then you wonder if the car is as nice.

Your point about DCA becoming more like DCI is one worth seriously talking about.

This can be looked at from a lot of different angles. In the pre-DCA to pre-DCI era, I know people that would know on DCP will say with authority that the Senior corps were better because of the wealth of experience and talent the Seniors had over the Juniors.

The shows were for all intents and purposes... the same style, etc.

It changed quickly in the DCI period with the extended touring.

That being said, there were certain corps that didn't have an identity in DCA that needed one and needed to make their brand different from the icons in the circuit- went more towards a DCI style of program in the late 70's early 80's because they wanted to compete and not get steamrollered. Those three corps were not satisfied with being happy to be part of DCA and just showing up to be 8th like they should have been so the big boys/fan faves could keep winning.Their personnel were also younger than the DCA median as well because they recruited out of the competitive HS circuits. Why? That was who they had to work with. Westshore, Sun, and Bush. Sun was more DCA in nature but went with radically different music, guard, and an iconic and totally dominant Dennis DeLucia Percussion section to start shaking the tree. Westshore jimmied the door open a bit more and then blew themselves up for a few years, Bush then broke through that crack in the door and ran wild. Everyone else realized they had to do something or these guys would take over. They had to adapt...or go under. Some of them did, or went through long periods of time where they ended up placing not where they felt they should have and finally did something about it.

More and more DCI and scholastic-background designers and instructors come on board doing what they do to compete and win with DCA teams. Things have been moving that way for over 35 years now, and folks are only starting to notice this?

Even Empire did some charts based on ones that DCI corps here and there.

The other issue was this now that I mentioned Empire: Empire was iconic in and of itself. If everyone else would have tried to be like them ("more DCA"... whatever that really means...), everyone would have panned those other corps for being a bunch of cheap knockoffs and imitations and they would not have succeeded. People want to compete. I'm sure Empire would have loved it if everyone tried to be like them and lost to them year after year, but that's not the point of the activity. This is an arena of ideas, and there are many different artistic solutions to the problem of creating a great, competitive, show.

Need to get going today- and I figure I may have rustled up some feathers myself, but if anyone wants to discuss, let's roll!

Edited August 26, 2015 by BigW

[C.Holland]

Note1

thanks for the notes bud. i hope you don't think I was calling you out. I wasn't. I like yours in that i think you cover a mix of both, and you give a great sample of what happened. I just remember reading the drum corps paper when it came out on tour and always seeing the same stuff over and over. So it kind of made me think why bother even writing on it? But I can always pick something great out of your reviews that i didn't see.

Note 2.

I do understand the history in that DCA corps were originally the powerhouse groups. You had lots of 22-35 year olds doing more, and could do more because in that day, Sr corps was for people who've been playing, either in corps or on their own. While Jr corps were kids learning to simply play music. Junior corps was originally for kids and beginners. And as design and DCI changed things, Jr corps became the frontrunner on innovation and demand, and in some aspect I think DCA is now the entranceway to drum corps. Part of that changed because of touring, part of it became DCI taking things away from VFW or Legion's operating shows. i still think DCA has a value because there was always something about seeing these shows on video that made these more accessible. Not just music wise, but overall thematically.

And now I see it as many groups are fighting to keep the doors open. (Whether they look it or not) If you can't produce something kids want to pay to become a part of, they find something else to do. If kids can't see a challenge in the summer circuit that's tougher than what they already do in the fall, it's hard to attract them. And last year we had lots of shows that accomplished entertainment, art, and challenge while still being cleanable in the time allotted. Which this year, i think things are a little different. Some of the shows just aren't designed for the time schedule. Weekends only allow so much time to improve, and the demand and content of shows are alienating the seniors. Someone made a comment about lots of dirt still on the field in mid august, which I'm guessing isn't normal.

As I more or less said in another thread, I could go full-tilt adjudicator, pull out my .50 cal sniper rifle, and do this like I was paid to judge the show and not sit back and just enjoy it. From my point of view, I'm not driving 180 miles one way, spending 80 bucks on a ticket and spending 8+hours on site watching 12+ performances to Scope and Drop everyone like Garrus in Mass Effect unless it's absolutely coyote horrid. Until I started to really get exhausted later in the show, my notebook's filled with performance issues. In modern adjudication, one is supposed to talk about what's good as well as what's wrong. I figure between the two of us we get balance.

Your point about DCA becoming more like DCI is one worth seriously talking about.

This can be looked at from a lot of different angles. In the pre-DCA to pre-DCI era, I know people that would know on DCP will say with authority that the Senior corps were better because of the wealth of experience and talent the Seniors had over the Juniors.

This is an arena of ideas, and there are many different artistic solutions to the problem of creating a great, competitive, show.

Need to get going today- and I figure I may have rustled up some feathers myself, but if anyone wants to discuss, let's roll!

[BigW]

Thanks, man!

DCA does have a great value for so, so many reasons, going way back.

My sister and I were able to march somewhere and not break my parents' bank for one thing. My sister was taught by great people, some DCI cats (Goodhart, Hardimon would come in once in awhile). Same for me (Frank Dorritie, Dave Rohrer, Ray Eyler). We both had a great experience for comparatively not a lot of money. The same applies now!

Education may not be what DCA sells to the fans- but for the members, it's excellent. Not everyone can afford to tour but wants the challenge. Some of us older folks just like to hit the field and challenge themselves, make the fans happy, and have their friends close by. They can do that in DCA.

You hit on the big problem every design team has. There's this cliff to oblivion where the shows become too difficult to clean in the time allotted that if you're not careful, you go right over this cliff. It's a sheer drop, and it's an ugly thing to see happen. The problem is, if you don't get as close to the cliff as you can without getting sucked over the edge, you'll lose. The Bucs last year got about as close as one can get to that edge and not go over. Their ship was half over the edge and ready to go over until Finals when they righted it. In some ways I think they learned a lot from it. I have a guess that the lesson the Cabs learned was that they needed to take more of a risk and get even closer.

One corps that really gets this and comes up with things that are very thoughtful and sophisticated, but not asking their people to do the impossible and implode their organization are the Sabres.

This also brings up another good point here that people have discussed recently. I think fans understand that they're not going to see a finished product or a wonderfully polished one at Cabs at the Beach. But I think one of the things some (not all) people say now and then is that they'd like to still see something that's decent early on and not leaving them cringing at times. That's also an issue for a lot of crazy reasons that don't line up well with each other.

You put together too 'easy' a program, take the lead, don't add content and enhance the program... you stall out and get passed. (Westshore '82- been there and done just that!)

You also want folks to attend contests early on in the season. Personally, I want the show hosts at these contests to have their coffers filled with loot. Otherwise- we don't have DCA at all. If people think... well... "Why go early to something that's not good.. or wait 'till, say Scranton".... it leaves a lot of shows with missing people and missing revenue. I don't have a real answer, but it's something that makes me think. It has to make show hosts think. It has be in the back of the minds of the corps Admins and something they need to impress upon their creative staffs. From listening to some people, I do think this is going on to a point. I guess the question would be, is it going on enough? I have no answer.

[VOReason]

Thanks bud. We're all going to see different things. Heck, the 7 people with voice recorders see different things from each other.

I like DCA, but I think it feels like this year is a "panic mode" year for the corps and organizations. (just from what i've seen online and reviews I've read, added onto what I saw last night) Like they saw the amount of kids heading to DCI and are attempting to lure them to DCA in any way possible. Shows that aren't feasible (cleanable) for the timelines, content that is crammed in until the fields burst and the normal homers are confused to the point of exile... etc etc etc.

To be honest, other than the Bucs, most Seniors aren't even in the same zip code as the Juniors in terms of content. But it is this effect generating content that seems to rule the day in the modern drum corps activity, and it is the corps whose program most closely approaches the modern paradigm of the activity, as defined by World Class DCI, that will stand the best chances of competing. As I mentioned in another thread, it is the show that is written last November that ultimately determines the DCA Champion on Labor Day weekend.

[Jeff Ream]

yknow, i just don't understand reading a review that's cuddly & stating that the performance was fantastic, when notes are shanked, intonation is off, and feet are out of time. why lower the standards of quality? this is an activity about precision. Or a review that only says, they performed well. Can we get any elaboration on that?

dont ask me, i dont pull punches

[N.E. Brigand]

And if the historical Bride and Bridesmaids (Bucs/Cabs) have a slip up . . .

If historical means over the past decade, Buccaneers should certainly be the brides, in your metaphor, but should Cabs be considered the bridesmaid? (If by that you mean maid of honor and not just one of the bridal party.)

For 2005-2014, Cabs finished 7th, 4th, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.

In the same period, MBI was 6th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd.

That's five almost-the-bride events for MBI vs. two for Cabs, or if you prefer to determine the leader by lowest ordinal total, 31 for MBI vs. 41 for Cabs.

If historical means just the past five years, and MBI is still your traditional runner up. Only at longer historical scales are Cabs the likelier fit, but some of those would require us to make room near the top for Brigs, Bush, Empire, etc.

[C.Holland]

If historical means over the past decade, Buccaneers should certainly be the brides, in your metaphor, but should Cabs be considered the bridesmaid? (If by that you mean maid of honor and not just one of the bridal party.)

For 2005-2014, Cabs finished 7th, 4th, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.

In the same period, MBI was 6th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd.

That's five almost-the-bride events for MBI vs. two for Cabs, or if you prefer to determine the leader by lowest ordinal total, 31 for MBI vs. 41 for Cabs.

If historical means just the past five years, and MBI is still your traditional runner up. Only at longer historical scales are Cabs the likelier fit, but some of those would require us to make room near the top for Brigs, Bush, Empire, etc.

well, I've only gone back about a decade via youtube, so your point is pretty accurate. I apologize for any confusion. I didn't include MBi in that very well, probably because I didn't see them at the show. So my bad. So I guess MBi should technically be making the speech and planning a shower. But this year, again, there's no idea until everyone is on the same field.

[Jeff Ream]

If historical means over the past decade, Buccaneers should certainly be the brides, in your metaphor, but should Cabs be considered the bridesmaid? (If by that you mean maid of honor and not just one of the bridal party.)

For 2005-2014, Cabs finished 7th, 4th, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd.

In the same period, MBI was 6th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd.

That's five almost-the-bride events for MBI vs. two for Cabs, or if you prefer to determine the leader by lowest ordinal total, 31 for MBI vs. 41 for Cabs.

If historical means just the past five years, and MBI is still your traditional runner up. Only at longer historical scales are Cabs the likelier fit, but some of those would require us to make room near the top for Brigs, Bush, Empire, etc.

I was going to say something along the same lines, but in the main forum I was called out for always being right and an expert, so I'll let you take the heat

[C.Holland]

I was going to say something along the same lines, but in the main forum I was called out for always being right and an expert, so I'll let you take the heat

I admit to being new to DCA. i've been looking at the last decade. so i was wrong to label them what I did. but again, i was concerned with the two in front of me that night. MBI... we'll see in a couple weeks. maybe they'll have jet packs or something this year.

[Jeff Ream]

I admit to being new to DCA. i've been looking at the last decade. so i was wrong to label them what I did. but again, i was concerned with the two in front of me that night. MBI... we'll see in a couple weeks. maybe they'll have jet packs or something this year.

oh I wouldn't have done it as a "hey idiot, get with it" kind of post. just to show the interesting stat of MBI's amazing consistency the last several years. because they aren't in the east most years until finals, they can tend to be overlooked.