MikeD Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 OK, I'll stipulate that in my frustration with your discussion style, in which I find it very hard to determine what you mean, I responded a bit aggressively above. My apologies. Here's what I learned: G.E. now is no more important, and perhaps less important, than it was in the past, so any calls for a "return" to a past in which G.E. is less important (and I should note that this thread's O.P., mfrontz, did not make such a call) are suspect. G.E. has always been so important to drum corps that no corps (as far as I noticed) has won a championship while placing lower than second in overall G.E. or third in any G.E. component. It was possible to win the title while placing as low as sixth in an execution caption in DCI's first decade. It is possible to do so in this decade. Therefore it makes no sense to claim that some subsequent change in rules or procedures, like the use of partial judging panels for early-season shows, have made G.E. more important than it used to be. And in fact, this year, for what looks like the first time ever, the champion corps actually received one fourth-place G.E. score (albeit one that was combined with a third-place G.E. score to result in an average of third in that G.E. caption). It is of course too soon to say, but if that 2015 result were to become a trend, then G.E. might be less important than it has been throughout DCI's history to date. One thing to remember...the three performance captions are added together and then divided by two, so the net impact of one specific caption is muted to an extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you don't think the Performer doesn't have a HUGE impact on general effect, you clearly missed the Blue Devils grabbing the dome and every fan in it by the balls and then swung 'em all around for eleven or so minutes. Not since 2008 has that happened to such an extent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This is correct. Otherwise why do staffs sit in critique? The performance-based captions are cut and dried. (Clean this stuff up, the score will go up.) But those are not equal performance captions. Because attempt and recovery do get credit. But you have staffs sitting in GE having to explain shows to evaluators so that scores can go up, and argue that what they are doing (or have planned) is going to trump someone else. Or that this is supposed to be a cluster#### on the field, and you just don't get it. As regards your second point, I think there must be a balance. How much can a reasonable person be expected to know? I have well-educated friends who have never seen a Fellini film or read Dante's poetry, even though both of those things might be generally considered to be important cultural works. Surely there must have been some G.E. judges in the past two seasons who lacked those experiences. Would it be fair of them to describe BD '14 or Crown '15 as "confusing" because of their own ignorance? As regards your first paragraph, I feel compelled to repeat the tired but true point that even the performance captions are completely subjective. The difference between those captions and G.E. is that the judges and staff are pretty much in agreement about performance matters: they collectively "like" the same things, but it's still subjective. Maybe I can't stand Western tuning and therefore think all the corps sound terrible. (This point is not terribly important, since it's never going to change, but should be mentioned from time to time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you don't think the Performer doesn't have a HUGE impact on general effect, you clearly missed the Blue Devils grabbing the dome and every fan in it I did not state that the performer does not have a huge impact on GE. So it appears that you are confused perhaps with what I did state above. I see no point in rephrasing, nor regurgitating it, as I believe the comments were clear ( and did not state what you believe I said ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amil Muzz Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I would be interested to know when a talented group rescued an average design. Not being snarky, just would like an example. I would hold pending evidence that in every era the shows that won competitively were also the best designed for their time. Crossmen 2012 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) if Show Design wasn't such a high octane points generating engine on the judging sheets, then we would have had Corps that win, finishing below 3rd place in Total GE. The fact that no Corps has won a DCI Title finishing below 3rd in Total GE is illustrative. It speaks directly to the the importance of the adult created Show Design. Corps with great Show Designs can have woefully subpar performer performance execution in a show in either Brass, Percussion, and/ or Guard and still win a Title for themselves. By contrast, superior performer performance execution in a DRUM Corps section ( ie Percussion )... even winning the DRUMS caption among 45 competing DRUM Corps at Prelims.... can still find a Corps not even qualifying for Finals, if their adult created Show Design ( 14th in Total GE ) is meh. Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Since so many of the posts in this thread are one person making the same point again and again and again, I'll repeat a metaphor I've used before (in another thread): a corps winning the championship through superior execution of mediocre show design would be like an actor winning an Oscar for beautifully reading from the telephone book. Presumably nobody wants that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snare_guy_83 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This seems to be a "chicken or the egg" situation... A show's GE can't come to life without great performers, but... Performers can't excel without being pushed by demanding shows. Both are very important. We are seeing shows becoming more and more challenging because performers are able to accomplish them, therefore pushing designers to continue innovating. It's cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Since so many of the posts in this thread are one person making the same point again and again and again, I'll repeat a metaphor I've used before (in another thread): a corps winning the championship through superior execution of mediocre show design would be like an actor winning an Oscar for beautifully reading from the telephone book. Presumably nobody wants that. Wow.. take a bow for that finely creative metaphor. Also, its ok for you ( or anyone else ) to repeat things like this.. We have annual predictions threads that have said pretty much the same things for years. ( lol!) Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 if Show Design wasn't such a high octane points generating engine on the judging sheets, then we would have had Corps that win, finishing below 3rd place in Total GE. The fact that no Corps has won a DCI Title finishing below 3rd in Total GE is illustrative. It speaks directly to the the importance of the adult created Show Design. Corps with great Show Designs can have woefully subpar performer performance execution in a show in either Brass, Percussion, and/ or Guard and still win a Title for themselves. By contrast, superior performer performance execution in a DRUM Corps section ( ie Percussion )... even winning the DRUMS caption among 45 competing DRUM Corps at Prelims.... can still find a Corps not even qualifying for Finals, if their adult created Show Design ( 14th in Total GE ) is meh. I'd say that in the case you noted, a 22nd in overall marching execution and 16th in brass ex (with a 22nd in MA factored in) did more than GE to keep them out of finals, not to mention 18th in both Brass and marching GE. Only their 6th in Drum GE kept them as high as 14th in that overall caption. They had a beast of a percussion section, for sure, but the rest???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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