ajlisko Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) While I appreciate the explanation and education, I have to agree with Fred here ... I saw the corps in Bridgeport last Sat from the very top and felt that the electronics were distorting, not enhancing, what I was hearing ... especially in the final moments of a piece as Fred pointed out ... I do not have the listening sophistication to appreciate the nuances of what is transpiring during the "patches" described ... I'm glad the judges do ... I'll give another listen this weekend from home to see if I can pick up on the points you made ... my surround sound system should allow me to hear the separation ... it's worked well on past DCA broadcasts ... good luck in Rochester ... should be a great weekend ... :-) Obviously I cannot speak for Bucs or Cadets2, but I can tell you this about Caballeros show... You were hearing things that were not there. None of the synth patches in Cabs' show "simulate" brass as you describe. Every patch was carefully chosen to stand on it's own, providing sounds the brass line isn't capable of achieving. Here are two examples of what I'm talking about, both from Part 4 (the last number) of the show: 1. Part 4 starts with a funk tuba groove. There's a very cool drop-bass sound effect played at the end of the first time through when the tubas are soli. It's on an octopad sampler (on the far left side of the pit). The synth player ads an electronic doubling of the tuba part on the second time through (when the baritones enter the funk) but it's a very distinct sound...there's no confusing it with the actual tuba sound. 2. Just before the pseudo-company front they synth plays a choir patch, setting up the hit. She plays it alone, and then along with the brass on the hit. The choir patch makes a return on the last note. The brass is plenty capable of letting it rip at the end of each song, and there's no bolstering going on. Synth playing yes, but only with a clearly distinct patch. We've been very clear about out use of electronics. We took an intentional "go big of go home" approach to the use of electronics, with every single use having a purpose. The judges have picked up on that and rewarded the corps, particularly over the last couple of weeks. Nothing is perfect, however, as we did have a minor issue with overall volume at one point in Scranton (since fixed). If you want a "grand tour" of what we're doing, find me at any rehearsal this weekend and I'll give you one. Edited September 2, 2015 by ajlisko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Windish Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) This matter is a more a curiosity to me. When all is said and done, I'm just an untrained, common, everyday fan with no musical expertise. Like most all other fans, my 'church' is Our Lady of Loud. The added boost sounds wonderful. But, with no close monitoring, there is nothing to stop a tiny line from blowing down the house at certain moments. I don't think that's where the activity needs to go. I approach things first with a bit of cynicism, always have. When something appears differently, I need to know why. Also have no idea what the DCA rules say, how it can be enforced, and by who. If added sounds follow what I call a melodic (flowing up and down, wave-like) path that, to my casual ears, matches portions of others who are actually playing above, I feel a little disappointed. That's all. I know Jeff and BigW have expressed opinions about this issue. Both are musicians, but one's a drummer and you know what they say about that, Andy. I'm just a lowly guard guy. It would be nice to hear comments from others. Edited September 2, 2015 by Fred Windish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 Jeff's a drummer with experience in helping those electronic doo dads work in the pit from plugging in to finding the right sound. and even as a drummer, I can tell when something is doubled with a patch that sounds well...like the hornline. that wasn't my issue. my issue was just one of volume, specifically for Bucs seemed loud from start to finish. Knowing that crew, it had to be a glitch. They pay way too much attention to detail to let that happen for an entire show. I remember at Dtown there was one moment where it was really loud and it was adjusted right away. if you want to hear samples of the hornline being played at the same time, listen to Bluecoats. you'll notice the difference between that and what Bucs, Cabs, and most corps do 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthe50 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 All of the corps are learning the electronics game as the season goes on. I was in Scranton where the Cabs pit was over balanced the entire show. In Clifton it was better. Both C2 and Bucs had their out of balance moments at the Reading show. The implementation of electronics will keep getting better. I don't think anyone can argue the fact that the DCA corps are now "up to date" with programming which has resulted in a greater level of entertainment. Last year, the Cabs pre-show was very cool and they could not have set that mood once the show started under the 2014 rules. The fact that they could not keep that feeling going into the judged portion of the show was a bummer because it was so cool. This year, they have added some neat moments as well. C2 and Fusion also use electronics to enhance their shows as I am sure MBI does. Fusion's use is more horizontal while C2's is more vertical, both helping to enhance their programs. The Bucs use electronics in many ways to enhance their program. They find ways to enhance their very creative transitions while providing a variety of colors with their choice of patches and samples. Everybody wins, unless you are one of "those" who refuse to accept change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Jeff's a drummer with experience in helping those electronic doo dads work in the pit from plugging in to finding the right sound. and even as a drummer, I can tell when something is doubled with a patch that sounds well...like the hornline. that wasn't my issue. my issue was just one of volume, specifically for Bucs seemed loud from start to finish. Knowing that crew, it had to be a glitch. They pay way too much attention to detail to let that happen for an entire show. I remember at Dtown there was one moment where it was really loud and it was adjusted right away. if you want to hear samples of the hornline being played at the same time, listen to Bluecoats. you'll notice the difference between that and what Bucs, Cabs, and most corps do I believe they had an issue with the remote control, Jeff. Definitely a glitch. The wierd thing about it was, when it did get loud, it drove some of the audience crazier. They fed off it. Not all, but enough that it was audible to me. Thanks for your end of things. You answered some of the things that frustrated me about what's happening in your review, and I appreciate that. I rarely get frustrated with results and score relations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajlisko Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) So ... for those of us that accept change but don't understand the nuances of what the experts here explain, what is meant when you say vertical, horizontal, patch and sample ... I feel like a "dumbsh|t" reading this ... Also ... if you can ... explain where the deficiencies of the use of electronics would be pointed out on the sheets ... I fail to see any rationale presented here that penalizes its misuse ... only statements which glorify its usage ... Thanks in advance ... always looking to learn ... :-) C2 and Fusion also use electronics to enhance their shows as I am sure MBI does. Fusion's use is more horizontal while C2's is more vertical, both helping to enhance their programs. The Bucs use electronics in many ways to enhance their program. They find ways to enhance their very creative transitions while providing a variety of colors with their choice of patches and samples. Everybody wins, unless you are one of "those" who refuse to accept change. Edited September 3, 2015 by ajlisko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Windish Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Great question, Mr. Lisko! I was also hoping to learn what, exactly, is improper use. Also, who determines that violation? Then, what is the numerical penalty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 So ... for those of us that accept change but don't understand the nuances of what the experts here explain, what is meant when you say vertical, horizontal, patch and sample ... I feel like a "dumbsh|t" reading this ... Also ... if you can ... explain where the deficiencies of the use of electronics would be pointed out on the sheets ... I fail to see and rationale presented here that penalizes its misuse ... only statements when glorify its usage ... Thanks in advance ... always looking to learn ... :-) I will do my best, Andy but am late for work. You KNOW this stuff just not the jargon. Try to explain later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 So ... for those of us that accept change but don't understand the nuances of what the experts here explain, what is meant when you say vertical, horizontal, patch and sample ... I feel like a "dumbsh|t" reading this ... Also ... if you can ... explain where the deficiencies of the use of electronics would be pointed out on the sheets ... I fail to see and rationale presented here that penalizes its misuse ... only statements when glorify its usage ... Thanks in advance ... always looking to learn ... :-) a patch is one of the programs in the synth...say you want an organ sound, so you select the organ patch. a sample is when you record something and program it in to be keyed by a certain button. Many times corps/indoor units will have "scenes" where this button changes everything to scene 1, and then the performer has to know what buttons to hit for what sounds, then you flip to scene 2 and it may be different button, but you have to know what to hit when. trust me, anyone who thinks being a synth player is just "pushing buttons" has no idea the headache being a synth player can be LOL. ( not you specifically Andy, just in general). They have to know what buttons and triggers to hit when, when to flip to different patches, samples....and oh stay in time with the rest of the ensemble too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 So ... for those of us that accept change but don't understand the nuances of what the experts here explain, what is meant when you say vertical, horizontal, patch and sample ... I feel like a "dumbsh|t" reading this ... Also ... if you can ... explain where the deficiencies of the use of electronics would be pointed out on the sheets ... I fail to see and rationale presented here that penalizes its misuse ... only statements when glorify its usage ... Thanks in advance ... always looking to learn ... :-) oh and on the sheets....ensemble music and GE would be where issues on the sheets would occur. for ensemble, timing, balance etc are the main drivers, on GE, it could be a variety of things as to where it can be viewed in good or bad lights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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