2016 Rule Congress proposals

[garfield]

Which leads to the base question what is the purpose of the Rules Congress?

-to correct problems by clarifying and re-developing the rules?

-to shift the activity into different directions?

-to appease the various personalities of the DCI executives, corps admins, and corps faculties?

-to provide a better experience for the MMs and a better product for their fans and interested parties?

-to adjust the activity to whatever the sponsoring manufacturers are pushing this season (new unis, new instruments, more fabric, more props, for example.)

All of these are legitimate reasons, among others, to have an annual rules congress of course and I wonder if we're experiencing one of those now. It could very well be that the decision-makers have reached the point that they've finally come to admit to themselves and the fan base that the activity is entertainment/performance focused and not competition.

The contradiction comes, IMO, when you call it a competition but judge it as a beauty contest.

Of course, it's actually both but at different levels; it competition within the MM ranks, and it's performance and entertainment for us fans to experience from the outside looking in.

At its core, the activity is about personal performance perfection that judges MMs against each other, as it always has.

Maybe the leaders want it to be something else.

[garfield]

There's a difference between a discussion and an argument. Clearly you guys just want to argue. I like the idea. And "I recognize that it was only meant to be derogatory" -- unnecessary accusation on your part. I honestly just like idea and I honestly believe that change makes some nervous or uncomfortable. It's an observation / not an insult.

I said it was a performance activity - not "only a" - it is also a competitive activity. The purpose of the competitive aspect is to encourage excellence. I feel "excellence" and "effectiveness" can be judged from the side lines and the stands. JMO

"Evidence"? What "evidence" do you suggest would be appropriate? A massive market research study? that's the classic straw man counterargument

I've never been able to actually argue on DCP, and I think this discussion has been quite civil indeed. Possibly it's just that you disagree that it feels like an argument. I have no interest in argument, but I would be pleased if I were able to shed light or perspective that might change a counter viewpoint to match mine.

And I think - and cautiously say - that it would be hard to find comments here that reveal nervousness or discomfort, at least on my part (and I'd bet others, but I'll let them agree or not). Your "observation" is a thin veil for condescension, as if there actually IS nervousness or discomfort.

We actually agree more than disagree, IMO, George. It's just band, and I know that, too. But you're wrong on this issue and I wish I could help you change your opinion to closer to mine.

I can ask, although you don't have to answer of course, why you think your viewpoint is accurate - that percussion performance can be as well-adjudicated from the sidelines as from the field. I presented several examples and rationales, and can present more. You've made a simple statement without any supporting thought: "I just do, that's all" is the notion of your post. OK, I respect your opinion.

I accept that we're also closer in opinion than this one issue may reveal. I happen to think DCI should stop revealing scores to fans entirely and focus on selling shows as entertainment instead of competition.

[mfrontz]

Link to an interview with Dennis DeLucia in 2007, where he pretty much disagrees with what I think on this. The fact that he is a DCI HOF member and a noted percussion arranger and instructor doesn't make him right, but certainly it is worth reading and thinking about.

Relevant part below:

HH: Currently, there is one judge that moves between the battery and front ensemble. Do you believe the front ensemble should be judged by a separate individual?

DD: Absolutely not. Should there be a “tuba” judge,” a “rifle” judge? A “bass drum” judge? We should be emphasizing the total ensemble, the total corps, rather than having a field percussion judge run for his/her life trying to assess one voice at a time while avoiding flying bodies and equipment.

HH: Do you believe a single judge could effectively adjudicate a corps’ percussion ensemble offerings from either the sidelines or front rows of a stadium and remaining off the field?

DD: Absolutely, but only if the definition of “successful achievement” shifted away from the importance of the particular voices in the drum line [snares, tenors, basses, etc.] and toward the function and success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole.

HH: Many years ago, our late friend Bobby Hoffman and I had a discussion about the judges on the field and he stated he’d like to see all judges off the field and seated among the audience. How do you feel about taking the judges off the field?

DD: It’s long overdue. Get them all off the field. I know my answer will not be met well by the percussion community and, perhaps if I were still teaching, I’d want them on the field as well, but my involvement with the broadcast since 1994 has really changed my perspective on this issue. But I also think the whole scoring system needs an overhaul.

We only need six judges:

1. Performance Brass
2. Performance Percussion
3. Performance Visual [with a color guard sub-caption]
4. Brass Effect/Total Corps Effect
5. Percussion Effect/ Total Corps Effect
6. Visual Effect/ Total Corps Effect.

HH: A few years ago, percussion judge Charlie Poole was seriously injured while on the field. Would you agree that getting the judges off the field is a safety issue and not just one of aesthetics?

DD: Sure.

[garfield]

And I rest my case :)

lol

touche

[2muchcoffeeman]

HH: Do you believe a single judge could effectively adjudicate a corps’ percussion ensemble offerings from either the sidelines or front rows of a stadium and remaining off the field?

DD: Absolutely, but only if the definition of “successful achievement” shifted away from the importance of the particular voices in the drum line [snares, tenors, basses, etc.] and toward the function and success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole.

Excellent info, thanks. Interesting that DD affirms what I had said previously: A change in the position of the perc judge requires a change in what is rewarded on the sheets.

And it is impossible for any change on the sheets not to be eventually expressed in the actual performance of the kids.

The question, now, is whether a change to reward "success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole" results in an experience that drum kids actually want to participate in.

Also interesting that none of this justification appears on the proposal put before the rules committee.

Edited January 13, 2016 by 2muchcoffeeman

[GUARDLING]

Link to an interview with Dennis DeLucia in 2007, where he pretty much disagrees with what I think on this. The fact that he is a DCI HOF member and a noted percussion arranger and instructor doesn't make him right, but certainly it is worth reading and thinking about.

Relevant part below:

HH: Currently, there is one judge that moves between the battery and front ensemble. Do you believe the front ensemble should be judged by a separate individual?

DD: Absolutely not. Should there be a “tuba” judge,” a “rifle” judge? A “bass drum” judge? We should be emphasizing the total ensemble, the total corps, rather than having a field percussion judge run for his/her life trying to assess one voice at a time while avoiding flying bodies and equipment.

HH: Do you believe a single judge could effectively adjudicate a corps’ percussion ensemble offerings from either the sidelines or front rows of a stadium and remaining off the field?

DD: Absolutely, but only if the definition of “successful achievement” shifted away from the importance of the particular voices in the drum line [snares, tenors, basses, etc.] and toward the function and success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole.

HH: Many years ago, our late friend Bobby Hoffman and I had a discussion about the judges on the field and he stated he’d like to see all judges off the field and seated among the audience. How do you feel about taking the judges off the field?

DD: It’s long overdue. Get them all off the field. I know my answer will not be met well by the percussion community and, perhaps if I were still teaching, I’d want them on the field as well, but my involvement with the broadcast since 1994 has really changed my perspective on this issue. But I also think the whole scoring system needs an overhaul.

We only need six judges:

1. Performance Brass

2. Performance Percussion

3. Performance Visual [with a color guard sub-caption]

4. Brass Effect/Total Corps Effect

5. Percussion Effect/ Total Corps Effect

6. Visual Effect/ Total Corps Effect.

HH: A few years ago, percussion judge Charlie Poole was seriously injured while on the field. Would you agree that getting the judges off the field is a safety issue and not just one of aesthetics?

DD: Sure.

WOW! you just sent me back decades.....lol. I also remember that same conversation with Hoffman

Topic aside, it reminded me of some wonderful times and certainly the birth of some great things to come

( although many didn't think so)..lol

Thanks

Edited January 13, 2016 by GUARDLING

[garfield]

Link to an interview with Dennis DeLucia in 2007, where he pretty much disagrees with what I think on this. The fact that he is a DCI HOF member and a noted percussion arranger and instructor doesn't make him right, but certainly it is worth reading and thinking about.

Relevant part below:

HH: Currently, there is one judge that moves between the battery and front ensemble. Do you believe the front ensemble should be judged by a separate individual?

DD: Absolutely not. Should there be a “tuba” judge,” a “rifle” judge? A “bass drum” judge? We should be emphasizing the total ensemble, the total corps, rather than having a field percussion judge run for his/her life trying to assess one voice at a time while avoiding flying bodies and equipment.

HH: Do you believe a single judge could effectively adjudicate a corps’ percussion ensemble offerings from either the sidelines or front rows of a stadium and remaining off the field?

DD: Absolutely, but only if the definition of “successful achievement” shifted away from the importance of the particular voices in the drum line [snares, tenors, basses, etc.] and toward the function and success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole.

HH: Many years ago, our late friend Bobby Hoffman and I had a discussion about the judges on the field and he stated he’d like to see all judges off the field and seated among the audience. How do you feel about taking the judges off the field?

DD: It’s long overdue. Get them all off the field. I know my answer will not be met well by the percussion community and, perhaps if I were still teaching, I’d want them on the field as well, but my involvement with the broadcast since 1994 has really changed my perspective on this issue. But I also think the whole scoring system needs an overhaul.

We only need six judges:

1. Performance Brass

2. Performance Percussion

3. Performance Visual [with a color guard sub-caption]

4. Brass Effect/Total Corps Effect

5. Percussion Effect/ Total Corps Effect

6. Visual Effect/ Total Corps Effect.

HH: A few years ago, percussion judge Charlie Poole was seriously injured while on the field. Would you agree that getting the judges off the field is a safety issue and not just one of aesthetics?

DD: Sure.

His qualifiers are noteworthy.

Also, he admitted that 13 years changed his viewpoint. It's been 8 or 9 years since this interview - I wonder if he might have changed his opinion again?

[GUARDLING]

His qualifiers are noteworthy.

Also, he admitted that 13 years changed his viewpoint. It's been 8 or 9 years since this interview - I wonder if he might have changed his opinion again?

I doubt it. Although I think he would maybe elaborate even more on the process. Unless it was a moving forward to something else I dont remember either one of them ( dennis or bobby )moving back with much.

I have learned though never to say never

Edited January 13, 2016 by GUARDLING

[actucker]

Excellent info, thanks. Interesting that DD affirms what I had said previously: A change in the position of the perc judge requires a change in what is rewarded on the sheets.

And it is impossible for any change on the sheets not to be eventually expressed in the actual performance of the kids.

The question, now, is whether a change to reward "success of the entire ensemble as it relates to the music as a whole" results in an experience that drum kids actually want to participate in.

Also interesting that none of this justification appears on the proposal put before the rules committee.

That criteria is covered on both the music analysis and the music GE sheets.

[2muchcoffeeman]

That criteria is covered on both the music analysis and the music GE sheets.

. . . prompting the question why it would be considered an improvement to have a sideline-bound judge responsible for the same kind of evaluation.