Trombones 2016

[C.Holland]

You all have jumped onto the bandwagon I wasn't driving. I never said anything about intonation. My statement was, from a programming perspective, there is nothing being done by corps that could not have been done using (3 valve) bugles. All you music majors come at me with color and other things that were not part of the original claim. However, why, if Bb instruments are SO superior, are corps (i.e. bands) constantly 'enhancing' the bottom end with electronics? Why does it take 16 (or more) tubas to project what 6 contras put out? Why do they need to field 80 brass when 50 could project the same volume? This isn't about intonation!

because bad sound at higher volumes is worse.

keep your old bugle... off my lawn.

[MikeD]

You all have jumped onto the bandwagon I wasn't driving. I never said anything about intonation. My statement was, from a programming perspective, there is nothing being done by corps that could not have been done using (3 valve) bugles. All you music majors come at me with color and other things that were not part of the original claim. However, why, if Bb instruments are SO superior, are corps (i.e. bands) constantly 'enhancing' the bottom end with electronics? Why does it take 16 (or more) tubas to project what 6 contras put out? Why do they need to field 80 brass when 50 could project the same volume? This isn't about intonation!

Well, you yourself have moved on from programming to volume. There is more to sound than pure volume, and IMO a good strong sound with good intonation is better than just a loud sound.

BTW...there were great hornlines in every era, going back to the ones I first heard in 1964, my first year in drum corps.

[Kamarag]

You all have jumped onto the bandwagon I wasn't driving. I never said anything about intonation. My statement was, from a programming perspective, there is nothing being done by corps that could not have been done using (3 valve) bugles. All you music majors come at me with color and other things that were not part of the original claim. However, why, if Bb instruments are SO superior, are corps (i.e. bands) constantly 'enhancing' the bottom end with electronics? Why does it take 16 (or more) tubas to project what 6 contras put out? Why do they need to field 80 brass when 50 could project the same volume? This isn't about intonation!

There wasn't a six-man contra line anywhere in the history of drum corps that could play with the volume and quality of a very average 12-man line today. Ever. Most contra lines from the 60's and 70's, especially the valve-rotor lines, sounded like complete crap. It wasn't until the 80's that quality of sound even became a thing.

[BRASSO]

There wasn't a six-man contra line anywhere in the history of drum corps that could play with the volume and quality of a very average 12-man line today. Ever.

Whats probably also indisputable is that ANY 12 man Contra line.. from any era..... would put out more volume than any 6 man Contra line from any era ( unless the 12 man line was comprised of little kids ).. All one would have to do is hook up a decimal registering machine for verification on this, BD probably did not put out more " volume " with their 12 man Contra line the year Madison went out with a 20 man Contra line either. Simply stated, all things being equal, 12 tuba players put out more volume on a tuba than 6 tuba players would. With " volume " however, even the Music Degreed here realize that " volume " has nothing at all to do with " intonation ". Intonation is a function of the musician's ability. Similar to a singer in a DCI Drum Corps show as well. His or her voice " intonation " in his or her singing voice has little to nothing at all to do with the " volume " that singer is projecting to the audience. Furthermore, the " volume " of the singer ( or the musicians ) can be amplified many times over with a simple use of amplification, or a simple microphone. But nonetheless," the intonation" of those musicians or that singer would remain what it is.... as its primarily a function of the person's abilities as a musician or singer.

Edited May 3, 2016 by BRASSO

[Kamarag]

Whats probably also indisputable is that ANY 12 man Contra line.. from any era..... would put out more volume than any 6 man Contra line from any era ( unless the 12 man line was comprised of little kids ).. All one would have to do is hook up a decimal registering machine for verification on this, Simply stated, all things being equal, 12 tuba players put out more volume on a tuba than 6 tuba players would.

Right on. I was with you until this...

With " volume " however, even the Music Degreed here realize that " volume " has nothing at all to do with " intonation ". Intonation is a function of the musician's ability. Similar to a singer in a DCI Drum Corps show as well. His or her voice " intonation " in his or her singing voice has little to nothing at all to do with the " volume " that voice is projecting to the audience. Furthermore, the " volume " of the singer ( or the musician ) can be amplified many times over with a simple use of a Microphone. But nonetheless," the intonation" of that musician or singer would remain what it is.... as its primarily a function of the person's abilities as a musician or singer.

The "music degreed" know that there is absolutely a correlation between intonation and volume, both in terms of acoustic physics and "perceived volume". In fact, the entire philosophical foundation of drum corps brass is based on it. The more in tune you are, the more your sound carries, and the louder you will be. Wayne Downey and Jack Meehan revolutionized drum corps brass in 1980 with this idea, and Jim Prime, Donnie Van Doren, Robert W. Smith, and Frank Williams built the best G lines ever using this philosophy. The entire Devils/Star/Crown teaching trees lay the foundations for their modern corps and bands based on it.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Kamarag

[BRASSO]

Right on. I was with you until this...

The "music degreed" know that there is absolutely a correlation between intonation and volume, both in terms of acoustic physics and "perceived volume".

My main point however is that 12 Tuba players of equal ability as 6 Tuba players.... both playing at equal fortissimo levels.... will generally find the 12 tuba players putting out more " volume " on the tubas than the 6 playing the tubas at the same fortissimo levels. And yes, I do realize that as a general rule of thumb, if we stretch the voilumes levels to the extreme, that the intonation levels... even among the best musicians... can sometimes be compromised if the volume is increased beyond what is recommended for the playing of that instrument and/ or that musical piece. Same with a singer. The louder the singer attempts to sing in volume, the risk the singer takes in maintaining both control as well as their intonation ( this likewise occurs at attempts to play at softer passages too, lest we forget )

Edited May 3, 2016 by BRASSO

[Kamarag]

My main point however is that 12 Tuba players of equal ability as 6 Tuba players.... both playing at equal fortissimo levels.... will generally find the 12 tuba players putting out more " volume " on the tubas than the 6 playing the tubas at the same fortissimo levels. And yes, I do realize that as a general rule of thumb, if we stretch the voilumes levels to the extreme, that the intonation levels... even among the best musicians... can sometimes be compromised if the volume is increased beyond what is recommended for the playing of that instrument and/ or that musical piece.

Gotcha.

[flammaster]

To quote Frank Zappa: "Timbre is everything".

Meaning that you can take a tune on Oboe or Guitar and it has a total different feel neither right or wrong they just sound different.

Cadets amazing french horn feature exemplifies that and I think once you hear BD and their trombones you will also agree.

[cixelsyd]

The "music degreed" know that there is absolutely a correlation between intonation and volume, both in terms of acoustic physics and "perceived volume". In fact, the entire philosophical foundation of drum corps brass is based on it. The more in tune you are, the more your sound carries, and the louder you will be. Wayne Downey and Jack Meehan revolutionized drum corps brass in 1980 with this idea, and Jim Prime, Donnie Van Doren, Robert W. Smith, and Frank Williams built the best G lines ever using this philosophy. The entire Devils/Star/Crown teaching trees lay the foundations for their modern corps and bands based on it.

That is mythology. Why, if that were true, the hornlines of recent years would be way louder than any legacy line, especially lines from the less-than-three-valve era.

[MikeD]

That is mythology. Why, if that were true, the hornlines of recent years would be way louder than any legacy line, especially lines from the less-than-three-valve era.

Well, there is also the desired sound and teaching approaches to factor in for each era.

Plus, there is also rose-colored memory of how much different/better it was in the past, true or not.

In addition, there is a perceived volume of brass when compared to percussion sections with far fewer people and instruments, esp going waaaay back.

And gong back the brass charts were a lot more vertical in nature as opposed to horizontal, given the tick era of lining up attacks and releases to avoid ticks.

IMO your assertion is just not true.