Trombones 2016

[BRASSO]

I have heard enough loud, out-of-tune hornlines to indicate otherwise. But okay, educate me - how do you think intonation affects volume?

I'll take a stab at it for an explanation:

Most seasoned, professional, accomplished brass musicians will tell us that even the very best musicians will sometimes struggle with intonation issues ( which fundamentally is a control and balance issue ) if they push the volume levels on their brass instrument. This goes with the risk of attempting to exercise higher volume levels. The same thing occurs with professional singers. When they push the volume levels to the upper limits, they run the risk of losing proper control, intonation. Thats why we appreciate ( for example ) the singing capabilities of Pavarotti. He had the uncanny ability to maintain proper intonation control of his voice at volume levels that exceeded the capacity of 99% of singers. For her part, in the pop world, Celin Dion has this ability too as well, imo. Both could maintain proper voice control with proper intonation at volume levels that seemingly could break glass. Interesting enough, very soft volume level singing for professional singers can likewise be a challenge for even the best of them sometimes too, as proper intonation of the voice in the singing can also be a challenge at extreme low levels of volume too. Finally, the brass instrument itself does have some impact on the capacity of the musician to play with proper intonation. Some brass instruments are technically made better than others ( heck, brass instrument Mfg's even claim this themselves ). And of course, the musicians ability on the brass instrument is a factor in the intonation levels that comes out of the brass instrument when he or she blows into it too., irrespective of the volume levels.

Edited May 4, 2016 by BRASSO

[Kamarag]

I have heard enough loud, out-of-tune hornlines to indicate otherwise. But okay, educate me - how do you think intonation affects volume? And what drum corps examples can you point to (positive or negative)?

The facts behind this are "Resonance" and "Harmonics".

Resonance: Resonance happens when an object sounds a note, another object tuned to the same note starts vibrating and giving sound of the same note. So we get a louder tone when there are resonating objects around.

Harmonics: When a note is played the base frequency and its multiples are also sounded (eg. a vibrating 440Hz A string gives sounds in 880, 1320, 1760Hz...etc frequencies as well). Base note is the first harmonic that we perceive as the name of the note. It's following harmonics are also sounded with less and less magnitude (octave, octave + perfect fifth, second octave, second octave + major third...etc.).

So, if you play a note you can make resonate and sound everything around you tuned to the same note, its octave, perfect fifth, major third, minor third, seventh, ninth...etc. resulting in a very strong sound. Harmonics and acoustic resonance is very effective on instrument boards, well tuned open strings, sounding instruments with good intonation, vocal cords, and naturally on acoustic ensembles like drum corps brass lines.

This effect multiplies a lot in ensembles (especially large ones), making every instrument resonate, from bottom to top. If every player has a very good intonation, chords and crossing notes will sound not only louder but better in quality. Good intonation is also very helpful in playing quality quiet tones and chords with little effort. This is one of the reasons why good players and ensembles can make the same instruments sound different and better than average players.

I'll give you a classic example of this effect, and I'll even do it with a 2-valve G bugle brass line....1985 Suncoast Sound. That line was so in tune, and the resonance of the line played so well with the harmonics being generated that the resulting overtones were audible on the recording itself...notes *not* written in the original music. You can hear it in the final push of Simple Song at Sunrise, where a very loud mello-type sound comes out of the ensemble. I'd tell you what the note was but I'm not near my phone/mp3 player at the moment.

I more modern example you can hear for yourself live at any show. Go check out Devils or Crown in the lot when they tune. They have tuning methods that demonstrate the volume rising as the line gets more and more in in tune (there are a couple of clips floating around YouTube of Crown doing this)...and they are instructed *not* to play louder (and it would be noticeable if individuals did).

Edited May 4, 2016 by Kamarag

[BillH]

The facts behind this are "Resonance" and "Harmonics".

Resonance: Resonance happens when an object sounds a note, another object tuned to the same note starts vibrating and giving sound of the same note. So we get a louder tone when there are resonating objects around.

Harmonics: When a note is played the base frequency and its multiples are also sounded (eg. a vibrating 440Hz A string gives sounds in 880, 1320, 1760Hz...etc frequencies as well). Base note is the first harmonic that we perceive as the name of the note. It's following harmonics are also sounded with less and less magnitude (octave, octave + perfect fifth, second octave, second octave + major third...etc.).

So, if you play a note you can make resonate and sound everything around you tuned to the same note, its octave, perfect fifth, major third, minor third, seventh, ninth...etc. resulting in a very strong sound. Harmonics and acoustic resonance is very effective on instrument boards, well tuned open strings, sounding instruments with good intonation, vocal cords, and naturally on acoustic ensembles like drum corps brass lines.

This effect multiplies a lot in ensembles (especially large ones), making every instrument resonate, from bottom to top. If every player has a very good intonation, chords and crossing notes will sound not only louder but better in quality. Good intonation is also very helpful in playing quality quiet tones and chords with little effort. This is one of the reasons why good players and ensembles can make the same instruments sound different and better than average players.

I'll give you a classic example of this effect, and I'll even do it with a 2-valve G bugle brass line....1985 Suncoast Sound. That line was so in tune, and the resonance of the line played so well with the harmonics being generated that the resulting overtones were audible on the recording itself...notes *not* written in the original music. You can hear it in the final push of Simple Song at Sunrise, where a very loud mello-type sound comes out of the ensemble. I'd tell you what the note was but I'm not near my phone/mp3 player at the moment.

I more modern example you can hear for yourself live at any show. Go check out Devils or Crown in the lot when they tune. They have tuning methods that demonstrate the volume rising as the line gets more and more in in tune (there are a couple of clips floating around YouTube of Crown doing this)...and they are instructed *not* to play louder (and it would be noticeable if individuals did).

Also, one can research wave augmentation, phase and cancellation in acoustics, A set of instruments playing the same pitch but out of tune degrades the total resultant wave strength, due to interference. At the extreme you can create the pitch completely out of phase and cancel the sound (this is how noise-cancelling headphones work). When all the instruments are completely in tune the resultant wave is stronger and perceived as louder and clearer.

Bear in mind that "loudness" is also partially perceived as greater when there are additional pitches and waveforms in a sound (noise), which can contribute to the historical perception that BITD G bugle lines were louder, even though most would agree they were not as clear or as "in-tune". It goes to the quality versus (perceived) quantity of sound argument, aka clarity versus sheer perceived volume. A jet engine, with its accompanying "noise", will always be perceived as louder than a pure (think a simple sine wave) sound wave played at the same sound pressure (Decibel) level.

Edited May 4, 2016 by BillH

[jjeffeory]

OMG, same people bickering as before....

I like trombones. They sound good. They're prettier when they're silver. I see they will be used in 2016.

Can't wait to see when a corps decides to actually march them in a show. I better they'll be ok.

[cixelsyd]

I'll give you a classic example of this effect, and I'll even do it with a 2-valve G bugle brass line....1985 Suncoast Sound. That line was so in tune, and the resonance of the line played so well with the harmonics being generated that the resulting overtones were audible on the recording itself...notes *not* written in the original music. You can hear it in the final push of Simple Song at Sunrise, where a very loud mello-type sound comes out of the ensemble.

That did not come out of the ensemble... it came out of the mouth of a spectator down front near the microphones.

This is why I use the word "myth" here. Sometimes, people try too hard to extrapolate classroom theory to situations where other things are going on.

The facts behind this are "Resonance" and "Harmonics".

Resonance: Resonance happens when an object sounds a note, another object tuned to the same note starts vibrating and giving sound of the same note. So we get a louder tone when there are resonating objects around.

Harmonics: When a note is played the base frequency and its multiples are also sounded (eg. a vibrating 440Hz A string gives sounds in 880, 1320, 1760Hz...etc frequencies as well). Base note is the first harmonic that we perceive as the name of the note. It's following harmonics are also sounded with less and less magnitude (octave, octave + perfect fifth, second octave, second octave + major third...etc.).

So, if you play a note you can make resonate and sound everything around you tuned to the same note, its octave, perfect fifth, major third, minor third, seventh, ninth...etc. resulting in a very strong sound. Harmonics and acoustic resonance is very effective on instrument boards, well tuned open strings, sounding instruments with good intonation, vocal cords, and naturally on acoustic ensembles like drum corps brass lines.

This effect multiplies a lot in ensembles (especially large ones), making every instrument resonate, from bottom to top. If every player has a very good intonation, chords and crossing notes will sound not only louder but better in quality. Good intonation is also very helpful in playing quality quiet tones and chords with little effort. This is one of the reasons why good players and ensembles can make the same instruments sound different and better than average players.

I will admit that you have given a better explanation than the academics who have preceded you.

However... these principles are hard enough to achieve to any noticeable degree with two perfect, stationary sound sources acting in controlled conditions. Anyone who believes they have a similar impact on the drum corps field is ignoring a host of other variables.

Human brass players are not perfectly in tune. There are way more than two of them. Many of them are playing different notes. Some have different horn voices (trumpet, mello, bari, tuba). They are moving. The air itself is moving due to wind. Even indoors, there are drafts from the tunnels and the air conditioning. All these motions are at different and varying speeds and directions. There are other instruments in the pit and amplified sounds joining into the ensemble. Sound waves are reflecting off objects and creating potential interference, much more so indoors.

In marching music, volume is primarily a function of number of players and how loud each one plays. Our perception of that volume is also highly dependent on staging - horn angles, drill position and seat position (where the spectator is). The hornline with the advantage in the above factors will sound louder, regardless of how much more out of tune they are in comparison.

I more modern example you can hear for yourself live at any show. Go check out Devils or Crown in the lot when they tune. They have tuning methods that demonstrate the volume rising as the line gets more and more in in tune (there are a couple of clips floating around YouTube of Crown doing this)...and they are instructed *not* to play louder (and it would be noticeable if individuals did).

Of course. The horn arc, where there are no other instruments, and everyone stands still. These discussions always end up using the horn arc as an example. That makes sense, because several of the variables I mentioned are taken out of the equation.

Yes, we will hear various overtones come and go as a good hornline tunes in to each other. Louder? Only to an incremental degree, in my opinion. Maybe my brain processes these sounds differently from yours... when I assess the volume of a hornline, I filter out the transient overtones and develop my perception based on the sustained sound. Or maybe I have not visited the right horn arc at the right time. Those of you seeking overtone nirvana probably spend enough time in the lot to find that magic moment when all 80 Devilinabluecadet horns are sufficiently in tune, and enough of the resulting sound waves arrive in phase where you are standing, and you get a bigger overtone hit than anyone ever will during a field performance.

[George Dixon]

OMG, same people bickering as before....

I like trombones. They sound good. They're prettier when they're silver. I see they will be used in 2016.

Can't wait to see when a corps decides to actually march them in a show. I better they'll be ok.

Cadets are marching with them. Yes, actually moving their feet :)

[cixelsyd]

Also, one can research wave augmentation, phase and cancellation in acoustics, A set of instruments playing the same pitch but out of tune degrades the total resultant wave strength, due to interference. At the extreme you can create the pitch completely out of phase and cancel the sound (this is how noise-cancelling headphones work).

No.

Noise cancelling works by sensing the noise and mixing its inverted waveform into the signal. The "pitch" of the noise is not changed to be "out of tune". In fact, it needs to be "in tune", but in opposite phase.

When all the instruments are completely in tune the resultant wave is stronger and perceived as louder and clearer.

When are all the instruments in a drum corps field performance completely in tune?

Bear in mind that "loudness" is also partially perceived as greater when there are additional pitches and waveforms in a sound (noise), which can contribute to the historical perception that BITD G bugle lines were louder, even though most would agree they were not as clear or as "in-tune".

By that logic, a hornline should grow louder by playing more out of tune, not more in tune. Who will be first to employ this innovation in DCI?

[DrumManTx]

No.

Noise cancelling works by sensing the noise and mixing its inverted waveform into the signal. The "pitch" of the noise is not changed to be "out of tune". In fact, it needs to be "in tune", but in opposite phase.

When are all the instruments in a drum corps field performance completely in tune?

By that logic, a hornline should grow louder by playing more out of tune, not more in tune. Who will be first to employ this innovation in DCI?

Just talked about this in an intro type class for electronic music, so I can back you up there.

Now back to your scheduled arguing about things people will never, ever agree on.

[BRASSO]

When it comes to loudness, intonation, etc issues, we should not lose sight of the fact ( imo ) that many people are more impressed with the emotion that the performer performs with. Yes, there are lots of people that are impressed with the technical aspects of these things. But for others if the solid technical perfection seems sterile, manufactured, unemotional, and so forth, it has failed to communicate to the audience as intended. Afterall, music ( and visual... and dance... ) is essentially, and fundamentally a communication endeavor. What moves one, may not move others. Lots of technically flawed performances, in many genres, have nonetheless won over the audience because its communication by the performer (s) at an emotional, viseral, level superceded the acknowledged technicality issues on the part of the performer (s) with many in the audience.

Edited May 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[CrownBariDad]

Just talked about this in an intro type class for electronic music, so I can back you up there.

Now back to your scheduled arguing about things people will never, ever agree on.

Yep -- MANY years ago when I needed to transcribe some music, I used a neat little trick using phase inversion. This was during the first vinyl phase. You swap the pos and neg wires on the turntable cartridge for only one channel. Then any sound with equal amplitude on both channels (i.e., appears in the virtual "center" channel) mostly disappears. You can get rid of drums, vocals/solos, and usually bass. Makes life a lot easier.

Nowadays, there's hardware and software that will do the same thing.