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Corps 19-25 Placeing Higher


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Many WC & OC corps fit within this placement consistently (Genesis, Surf, lately Crest) to name a few. To move up to 11-15 placement regularly what will it take? What about recruiting 15-19 new D1 caliber kids or do you need about 20-28? Keep in mind your goal is to stay in the 11-15 range for about 2-3 years before you move up again. These corps aren't that far off, having 15-28 top caliber kids may be the answer. I could be wrong!!! I need you opinion.

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Many WC & OC corps fit within this placement consistently (Genesis, Surf, lately Crest) to name a few. To move up to 11-15 placement regularly what will it take? What about recruiting 15-19 new D1 caliber kids or do you need about 20-28? Keep in mind your goal is to stay in the 11-15 range for about 2-3 years before you move up again. These corps aren't that far off, having 15-28 top caliber kids may be the answer. I could be wrong!!! I need you opinion.

There's many reasons why some corps stay where they are and that just doesn't mean those not in finals. One thing to also keep in mind. It is not just about getting better or obtaining more talent or even a better staff, although all those things can certainly help, it also means another corps has to slip in one way or another. Often corps improve and don't move or sometimes even move down. This is a competition and one has to remember it's all in comparisons, so it's just not what you do as a corps but what others do, or don't do.

Of course we have no control of what another corps does so focus does have to be on ones own corps BUT with a mindful and strategic mindset. JMO

Edited by GUARDLING
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Many WC & OC corps fit within this placement consistently (Genesis, Surf, lately Crest) to name a few. To move up to 11-15 placement regularly what will it take? What about recruiting 15-19 new D1 caliber kids or do you need about 20-28? Keep in mind your goal is to stay in the 11-15 range for about 2-3 years before you move up again. These corps aren't that far off, having 15-28 top caliber kids may be the answer. I could be wrong!!! I need you opinion.

You mentioned Pacific Crest here. In my opinion, their recent arrangement to become a de facto feeder corps to and from the BD organization makes movement up the DCI placement ladder virtually impossible for them now in the future.

The key for Corps in the perennial 15th placement and below rung of the DCI pecking order, is to prevent themselves from being a stepping stone Corps to the others they compete with in Division. That means retention of their veteran, talented vets. Thats primary, imo. If they can't do that, they are hopelessly doomed to finish where they do each and every season from now till the end of time. Crown has been the only start up Corps ( and Star of Indiana ) the last 40 years to break out of this mold. They were able to retain vets, and that was of primary importance to moving up.... that and outstanding compilation of competent staff that convinced the kids that something special could be built right where they are.

Edited by BRASSO
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You mentioned Pacific Crest here. In my opinion, their recent arrangement to become a de facto feeder corps to and from the BD organization makes movement up the DCI placement ladder virtually impossible for them now in the future.

The key for Corps in the perennial 15th placement and below rung of the DCI pecking order, is to prevent themselves from being a stepping stone Corps to the others they compete with in Division. That means retention of their veteran, talented vets. Thats primary, imo. If they can't do that, they are hopelessly doomed to finish where they do each and every season from now till the end of time. Crown has been the only start up Corps ( and Star of Indiana ) the last 40 years to break out of this mold. They were able to retain vets, and that was of primary importance to moving up.... that and outstanding compilation of competent staff that convinced the kids that something special could be built right where they are.

You are quite right.

The stepping stone thing also happens with many other corps that are or have been in finals. Many have hopped over often in their last year to break that top 5 or medal from corps in the bottom 1/2 of finals. I'm not condoning it, just see it often and I suppose there's 2 sides to that thinking .

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There's many reasons why some corps stay where they are and that just doesn't mean those not in finals. One thing to also keep in mind. It is not just about getting better or obtaining more talent or even a better staff, although all those things can certainly help, it also mean another corps has to slip in way way or another. Often corps improve and don't move or sometimes even move down. This is a competition and one has to remember it's all in comparisons so it's just just what you do as a corps but what others do, or don't do.

Of course we have no control of what another corps does so focus does have to be on ones own corps BUT with a mindful and strategic mindset. JMO

Not to mention the experience of designers is often a factor. Sometimes a show sounds like a great show on paper and it just doesn't translate as successfully to the field. And if we're being honest, I think it's very difficult to design, say, a 14th place show for a 19th place caliber group of musicians. What I mean by that is Colts or Troopers might have membership that is more able to perform their show than Mandarins or PC has to perform Colts or Troopers show (just like Troopers would likely not perform Blue Devils show anywhere near the proficiency as BD). That makes it very difficult to make radical jumps in ranking, and often why that doesn't happen overnight short of another corps struggling.

Bill Cook once outlined what it took to have a successful corps, and there really are a plethora of components; without even one of them the corps will struggle.

1) Designers who know/have experience designing a successful show: must know all the different components necessary to be successful (sufficient demand, effect, etc)

2) Instructional stuff who know how to sufficiently clean the demanding show: must know how to effectively utilize rehearsal time to maximize members' efforts

3) Members who are talented enough to successfully perfect the demanding show: must have the stamina, desire, and fundamental chops to succeed

4) Support staff who keep things running behind the scenes to make EVERYONE'S life smoother, thus making staff & members has happy and comfortable as possible

While it's easy to KNOW what the components are that make a successful show, the massively difficult thing is putting ALL of the components together, which is the constant struggle for almost every corps in DCI.

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I disagree. PC working with BD at audition camps I think will make them better. You have those younger members learning from the best staff in the activity at those camps so they at least learn. You have a better chance of a BD cut to think about PC than heading off somewhere else. PC problem IMO is show design. If they want to move up they have to follow the path OC have design wise. OC have been making the right choices even with a younger group and starting the season after everyone else.

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Not to mention the experience of designers is often a factor. Sometimes a show sounds like a great show on paper and it just doesn't translate as successfully to the field. And if we're being honest, I think it's very difficult to design, say, a 14th place show for a 19th place caliber group of musicians. What I mean by that is Colts or Troopers might have membership that is more able to perform their show than Mandarins or PC has to perform Colts or Troopers show (just like Troopers would likely not perform Blue Devils show anywhere near the proficiency as BD). That makes it very difficult to make radical jumps in ranking, and often why that doesn't happen overnight short of another corps struggling.

Bill Cook once outlined what it took to have a successful corps, and there really are a plethora of components; without even one of them the corps will struggle.

1) Designers who know/have experience designing a successful show: must know all the different components necessary to be successful (sufficient demand, effect, etc)

2) Instructional stuff who know how to sufficiently clean the demanding show: must know how to effectively utilize rehearsal time to maximize members' efforts

3) Members who are talented enough to successfully perfect the demanding show: must have the stamina, desire, and fundamental chops to succeed

4) Support staff who keep things running behind the scenes to make EVERYONE'S life smoother, thus making staff & members has happy and comfortable as possible

While it's easy to KNOW what the components are that make a successful show, the massively difficult thing is putting ALL of the components together, which is the constant struggle for almost every corps in DCI.

Very true!

It takes many components . All the ducks in a row so to speak. Knowing your membership and writing for what makes them look their best either sets them up for success ( improvement ) or can easily be a failure. A designer might want to do something they think is cool or forward thinking BUT dont have the horses to pull it off. EGO has to be put aside. This is just not for the bottom of DCI but can be all through finalists . Can a bottom finalists pull off what the top could? Some might say sure If they have the show, if they have the members, if they have the money, if they have the right tour, Well thats alot of if's.

Edited by GUARDLING
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I disagree. PC working with BD at audition camps I think will make them better. You have those younger members learning from the best staff in the activity at those camps so they at least learn. You have a better chance of a BD cut to think about PC than heading off somewhere else. PC problem IMO is show design. If they want to move up they have to follow the path OC have design wise. OC have been making the right choices even with a younger group and starting the season after everyone else.

Oregon Crusaders have had excellent, creative designs of shows the last few years, imo.. But they have not moved up much in placements the last 5 years either. Not really. Look at their last 5 years of placements. What does it tell you ? ( 17th-22nd ). OC, despite the fine show designs, has not moved up much in placements for essentially the very primary reason I cited above for all of these lower tier WC Division competing Corps.

Edited by BRASSO
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I agree with most of the posters comments above. There are so many factors determining what helps a corps move up in the rankings. There is so much competition to get the top talent and designers, which makes it much easier for corps that have been established. It also doesn't help if some of the best talent in these corps leaves in the following years to march a higher placing corps in hopes of improving or winning a medal.

On the flip side, sometimes higher placement isn't always better. Sometimes in the quest to move up in the rankings, we have lost corps who spent too much money trying to make finals, only to fold the next year, or within the next 5 years. I would personally much rather see corps placing in the 19-25 place range with great entertaining shows, than to see them push too fast, and end up folding. Some corps also have been very smart and shortened their season so they don't overspend. In the last decade several corps have had their move ins later, and have not performed in competition until July, when sometimes the first competition of the season was around June 16-20th. I think this shows that placement isn't quite as important to the organizations as stability, and the ability to take care of their members and staff not only this season, but in the distant future as well. As cool as it would be to see Mandarins, Crest, Academy, or Pioneer break into the top 12, I would much rather they place 19-25 and be able to keep performing for the next 50 years.

In the last decade, I have seen more public support for the lower placing corps. At prelims and semi-finals, some of the lower placing corps have really wowed the audiences. Crowds have gone wild for Colts, Surf, Mandarins, Academy, Oregon and Crest with thunderous applause for great shows, even if they didn't place top 12. So instead of judging a show off of the judges scores, what is wrong with just enjoying all these amazing corps shows for what they are? Too many people are watching scores during the summer, and then when it comes to prelims and semis, they don't go watch the lower placing corps because they think because a show is scoring a 70, it isn't very good. Which brings me to a major point. If you want to see corps placing in the 19-25th group do better, do more to help support them. Buy from their souvie booths, donate to their gas fund. volunteer for them during the camps or summer tour.

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