Corps 19-25 Placeing Higher

[C.Holland]

PSA they start with 120 over two prelim sites (60 groups per site).

IMO, we can start this discussion again if a significant number of soundsport groups move to open class status.

Of course, maybe Open Class shouldn't be so involved in World Class (I personally don't think they should be much at all, but that's just me) regardless.

Open class is already treated like second fiddle. They have their quarters and finals way up in Michigan city. while that stadium is nice, and looks fuller than LOS (and its cheaper) it does feel like it just gets glossed over. Especially at the OC only shows during the season. But by giving them the option to play in LOS and see how they stack against the WC on the same day is an amazing experience for them. Yes, if you are in an early slot on quarters day, the stands are empty. if you are in an early slot on semi's day, the stands aren't much better.

But giving them the opportunity to play with the "big corps" is something they all should get to do. heck, look at what BDB, SCVC, Legends, and Spartans did last year. Legends turned lots of heads. And that's a corps known for taking members who have very little experience and teaching them how to do it and not just do it, but rock it.

There was no greater feeling than taking a small East Coast Jazz hornline and outplaying the corps twice their size.

Edited May 25, 2016 by C.Holland

[corpsband]

and if we're being honest, have a TON of other things on their plate and wouldn't have time to commit mid-May-mid-August plus at least once a month from Thanksgiving-May for camps. All while paying traveling expenses and thousands of dollars in corps fees. For people that love the activity, it's worth it. For people who want playing experience there are soooooooo many more legit summer playing experiences that cost similar or less with a significantly smaller time commitment (thus allowing college kid to work most of the summer).

I think it's a disservice to write things off as "kids don't know or have never seen drum corps" when the situation is far more complicated. What you're saying is obviously true, but a bigger piece of the puzzle would be an addendum of "and many kids don't care about drum corps and/or are unable to afford either financial or time commitments."

Well...those kids who make other choices in preference to drum corps clearly *do* know about drum corps. So they didn't really fall into the same category. I agree with your point -- there are plenty of outlets available for summer musical experience. And most don't require nearly the commitment of time or money that marching corps does. For that matter -- an awful lot of those kids are involved in non-musical activities as well. It's a big menu with lots of attractive choices.

Edited May 25, 2016 by corpsband

[eric24]

The DCI top 12 reminds me of AAU basketball, just a recruiting tool for elite athletics for 4-5 stars college phenom. I guess BD & Cadets have many 4-5 stars musicians and 19-25 have many 3-2 stars on average.

[2muchcoffeeman]

Right. So do we want DCI to be like AAU? Or, if a certain amount of concentration of "4-5 stars" among top corps is inevitable because of human nature, do we want a system that only intensifies it? Or would we prefer some adjustments that would counterract the AAU effect to some degree?

[corpsband]

The DCI top 12 reminds me of AAU basketball, just a recruiting tool for elite athletics for 4-5 stars college phenom. I guess BD & Cadets have many 4-5 stars musicians and 19-25 have many 3-2 stars on average.

exactly the attitude i referenced in my earlier post.

[C.Holland]

you all do realize that members don't always hop "up". there's movement in all directions these days due to staff changes, or financial changes, or scheduling changes, or even simply just because they want to see a different side. not everyone has the ability to move to concord or afford cadet's dues.

There is loyalty amongst all of these corps as well. It's really not as huge a % of those who leave one corps for another or to trade up.

But its not the stars that change with the corps tiers. Top level talent in in every corps OC and WC. It all goes back to those who design the show for the talent that separates one corps from another and the financials they can spend on that. Its more like $$$$$ design, vs $$$ design, vs $ design.

[BRASSO]

Well, that argument is a little different. What you are saying is that there are more competitive players around to fill more competitive soccer teams than there are competitive marchers to fill competitive drum corps. That's a supply and demand issue, and I won't necessarily disagree with you that the supply and demand for drum corps is different that for sports. That's really the overall problem isn't it?

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I don't see this so much as primarily a " supply and demand issue " as you do however, while granting you that sports have more talent to draw upon in its ranks, than the numbers of campers at Drum Corps camps.

Let me highlight a difference between what Drum Corps do , that we would never see in any other youth competitive endeavor that parents pay to have their child participate in :

In most selection of available talent, a team in a same division draws first, then the next team in the same division draws second, and so on and so forth.

However, look at the arrangements made by 2 " local Corps " out in California. Both in the same division. Both competing vs. one another on the field of competition. BD gets to " go first". Go " second"., go " third.. 4th... etc. As a matter of fact, BD gets to choose ALL the available talent they want from the pool, then the other competitor ( Pacific Crest ) gets dibs on the talent that BD decides they don't want. Since we are discussing Corps in the 19th to 40th position most years, we are talking here about Pacific Crest as one of these Corps. Keep in mind here that PC does not compete in a different division from that of BD. They compete against BD on the field of competition. The fact that PC has willingly agreed to this clearly lopsided, wacky arrangement,(probably out of sheer desperation to simply remain alive and kicking ), is beside the point. The point is that noone can name ANY other youth competitive endeavor that would have 2 " teams " in the same division, divide up the available talent in this fashion. To most of us here, this is a draw of talent that most here think is normal. But outsiders, if they evaluated it, would tell us is a completely wacky way to have competitors in the same division compete on the field with one another. That said, this wacky system will not change because at the moment there is no real appetite to change it. Thus, PC is doomed from now till the end of time never to get a sniff of elite status, if we are honest about it. And BD will dominate the competition in DCI from now till the End Times, as a consequence too.

Edited May 25, 2016 by BRASSO

[Eleran]

Something I didn't see touched on in the 12-or-15-or-25-on-Saturday debate ...

People talk about benefiting the #13-15 corps by including them on Finals night, but those corps aren't in the hunt for medals. They ARE, however, in the hunt for making Finals, and if you remove that arbitrary cut-off line below #12, then you've just removed the only real goal that they are capable of achieving.

Look at where the excitement is in European soccer - it's not just the end-of-season battle between the top 2-3 teams (the Blue Devils, Cadets and Crowns of the soccer world), but it's between the bottom teams fighting to avoid relegation to a lower tier (the Crossmen and Blue Stars), and the top teams of the lower tier fighting to get promoted (the Troopers and Colts).

Take away the red velvet rope separating #13 from #12, and you do away with that excitement and that chance at success.

[C.Holland]

Something I didn't see touched on in the 12-or-15-or-25-on-Saturday debate ...

People talk about benefiting the #13-15 corps by including them on Finals night, but those corps aren't in the hunt for medals. They ARE, however, in the hunt for making Finals, and if you remove that arbitrary cut-off line below #12, then you've just removed the only real goal that they are capable of achieving.

Look at where the excitement is in European soccer - it's not just the end-of-season battle between the top 2-3 teams (the Blue Devils, Cadets and Crowns of the soccer world), but it's between the bottom teams fighting to avoid relegation to a lower tier (the Crossmen and Blue Stars), and the top teams of the lower tier fighting to get promoted (the Troopers and Colts).

Take away the red velvet rope separating #13 from #12, and you do away with that excitement and that chance at success.

that was brought up somewhere. and was dismissed. because everyone should be included or something. disappointment is bad i guess. Or it was simply dismissed as they'll still fight for a better spot. the idea that "everyone performs on saturday" takes away those markings of finalist, or semi, or whatnot.

I miss the old days when Div 2/3 sent the top 5 scores from 2/3 Finals to quarters to see how they faired against Div 1. Mandarins 13 horns were often miles ahead of corps 3 times their size. That was an amazing cut to make, being div 2/3 an earning a spot in quarters.

Now its everyone plays on thursday, no matter what. To potentially an empty stadium

Edited May 25, 2016 by C.Holland

[Eleran]

disappointment is bad i guess.

horse hockey. Learning from disappointment is arguably more important than learning from success - there can only be one winner, so the others better be prepared to deal with disappointment.