Eleran Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 That is not necessarily true. Often, the finalist corps have first access to the member. Finalists may be the first corps they see, or the first corps they audition for. Yes, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence (until you actually get there and see for yourself). But corpsband makes many valid points that whereas the finalist corps may have great advertising, word-of-mouth and prestige that might entice a member away, the corps the member is currently with has the opportunity to provide actual, tangible experiences during the entire camp and summer schedule - they have the best opportunity to fight against the siren song of finalist corps by giving their members the reasons to make them want to stay. Are there actual steps being taken, which the members can see for themselves, that will likely cause the corps to become more competitive? Or do the members merely get lip-service, simply being told why they should stay, without actually being shown all season long. If all they see is the same-old-same-old, then those who can move on will likely do so. The fact that so few corps climb up isn't necessary an outside obstacle to overcome - it's often an internal self-imposed obstacle. What is the corps actually doing to raise their game? Simply hoping that next year's show design will be a better idea? Internal inertia is as much a cause as external obstacles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 What if DCI adopted WGI final numbers? WGI does 15. I know im PSA they go from 60-70 down to 30 down to 15 in 3 shows. If this activity keeps growing with soundsport groups moving to open class it could be a good change. My understanding is that twelve was selected because twelve corps is what could be accommodated on a football field in a finale though we did have 13 in 1977 due to a prelim tie and the Bridgemen situation. Twelve is the traditional number and I believe there was a possibility of adding more corps at the time when the top twelve was a bit more of a surprise. 1979's "Associate" class was the compromise, unless you marched with Garfield or Crossmen who saw it as a conspiracy for Troopers to make their way back to finals. Personally, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I could watch all corps compete for three days straight. However that's the love of drum corps in me speaking. From a competitive standpoint, I would want to see 11-15 far more competitive throughout the season, trading placements and not being able to predict the end results to add more corps to finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 That is not necessarily true. Often, the finalist corps have first access to the member. Finalists may be the first corps they see, or the first corps they audition for. The finalist corps may have them for a single audition. The NFC has them for an entire season. I stand by my assertion. They really don't know ANYTHING about that FC except for maybe an audition or a show they've seen. CHANGE THEIR MINDS. What better opportunity than to march an entire season with your corps? There will probably always be some kids determined to make their "dream corps" and nothing will stop the sufficiently competent from getting there. But what do those kids say about your corps to their friends who haven't marched yet? Once you're a MM, social networks guarantee that word-of-mouth reaches to every corner of the member base. And...what Eleran said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Personally, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I could watch all corps compete for three days straight. However that's the love of drum corps in me speaking. From a competitive standpoint, I would want to see 11-15 far more competitive throughout the season, trading placements and not being able to predict the end results to add more corps to finals. If 15 is better than 12 (because more corps and more MMs get the 'benefit' of performing at finals, this logically extends to 18 is better than 15 and so on. Which gets you to: everyone marches every night! And so you remove the competitive incentive provided by the elimination format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 how does preserving an arbitrarily set limit, which has the effect of encouraging talent migration up the ladder to a greater degree than otherwise would be the case, help 19-25 corps become more competitive? It doesn't help these 19th to 25th, nor even the 19th to the 40th placement Corps. DCI even changed the rules a few years back to allow the Open Class Corps to compete in the Quarters and Semi's. None of these things, absent a sensible transfer policy will ever help these lower placing corps attain a genuine competitive equal playing field with the perennial Top 10 Corps. So having a Top 12 Nite for Finals, while arbitrary as a number, seems like a reasonable and traditional number to retain to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 . Hypothetical: Give BD an entire class of high school graduates. Do you think that corps is going place out of finals? . That never marched before ? Yes. BD would quckly fall out of Finals, if not the 1st season, they would in the second season, most definately, imo. But I guess none of us will ever never know for sure, will we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) The fact that so few corps climb up isn't necessary an outside obstacle to overcome - it's often an internal self-imposed obstacle. Its an institutional problem however too. The environment in DCI is not conducive for these 19th-40th placing Corps to move up. I know like I sound like a broken record here, but DCI is the only youth Competitive " sport " in the entire world that when one puts their money down for their child to participate in the competition, that THEY thus get to choose the team and the Coaches for their child. I would imagine at least some on here either played a sport in their youth, or had a child that did. if thats the case, you intuitively know that simply because you sign up, and pay to play ( say little league, or youth soccer, or bantom hockey, or pop warner, etc) you don't get to choose the team you will be on. Hell, if that was the case, EVERY kid would demand to play on the top teams. Plus, half way thru the season, a star player from a non qualifying team can't be picked up by one of the top teams, willy nilly. ALL these youth competitive leagues have institutional protections put in place to allow fair practices in the competition. Heck, DCI elite Corps on Finals nite or at Championship Week are allowed to put in ANY new marcher they want for the competition. BD utilized a little girl last season to do so. But only practicality prevents BD from ( say ) taking a brass soloist or 2 or 3, from a non qualifying Corps into their Corps for Championships. DCI rules do not prohibit it. We here within DCI believe this is all ok. But believe me, to outsiders, such a system is so lopsidedly stacked for the Elites, that it is very strange to everyone else that DCI has NO transfer policies in place between competing teams in the Division. Its literally impossible that any of the other Youth groups would permit such a system as this. As such, without any sensible transfer policies implemented, it is odd to me that anyone believes that ( for example ) the Blue Devils will not dominate the DCI competition the next 40 years, the similar way that they have dominated the DCI competition last 40 years. Yes, the perennial 19th-40th Corps could perhaps do more to make themselves more competitive. But the notion that even if they took these measures, that the lure of the elites won't be stronger, is not an assessment I share. Without a sensible transfer policy implementation on the part of DCI ( whatever that form takes ) we are just kidding ourselves here if we believe that these 19th-40th placing Corps have much of a chance of ever seeing the Top 12 or Top 10, or top 5 or whatever. With history as our guide, it is far more likely that most of these Corps will fold up and be no more under this system. Thats where regrettably most of these Corps are headed over the next decade or so. Edited May 25, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleran Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Brasso - not sure when the last time you were involved with youth sports, because what you say might relate to Recreation level teams, but not at the top Club/Travel levels of today's sports (cf. the major league of marching), where it is pretty much EXACTLY like drum corps. You try out for multiple clubs at about the same time of year, and you get offers to play for specific teams (with specific coaches), and you have to accept those offers within a certain time. Kids who can earn multiple offers select what they think will be the best fit for them based upon how the team did last year, who the coach is, the level of teammates that were at tryouts, and where they will likely play in the coming season. And there are often no (or at least limited) transfers during the year. As both a parent of kids who have gone through that process (from a local town travel team to the top club in the US), and as a club director of a youth sport, it's pretty much the same process as Drum Corps. The only real differences are: (a) in drum corps you are taking a risk on what the show/costume will be, which as you yourself point out frequently has potentially more influence on how a corps does than the individual performance of the members, (b) in sports you are taking a risk that you will not get playing time (although there is some risk that certain corps will still cut you later on if you are not keeping up to par). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 DCI is the only youth Competitive " sport " in the entire world that when one puts their money down for their child to participate in the competition, that THEY thus get to choose the team and the Coaches for their child. Ok broken record -- heal thyself! Travel soccer. Travel baseball. Travel whatever other sport Winter (year-round) swimming. Cheerleading. Dance Team. pick your team/coach audition pay to play Every. Single. One. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 (edited) Brasso - not sure when the last time you were involved with youth sports, because what you say might relate to Recreation level teams, but not at the top Club/Travel levels of today's sports (cf. the major league of marching), where it is pretty much EXACTLY like drum corps. Thats NOT really true as you described it Eleran. One of my Daughters was an elite soccer goalie when she was young. One of the best in all of New England at her age. She played on the traveling AAU teams, was recruited by the colleges ( when she was just 15-16 ). In our experience, you are correct in that teams had their crack at her, but it was not the case that once she went to one team that the other teams she competed with did not have access to SIMILARLY talented players like her throughout the region, that would allow that team to compete on an equal playing field as the team she was on. DCI does not have this system in place at all, imo... Eleran. Edited May 25, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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