Corps moving to Bb sopranos from trumpets

[bill]

Well, I just looked up all the models of trumpet I currently know are used in drum corps (including both of Kanstul's G models- I'm pretty sure Les Stentors use one of them, and they have the same numbers listed anyway- one has a "powerbore," but they don't explain what that means) and compared them to this one for bore and bell size. Here are the results:

Yamaha YTR-4335GS: .459" bore, 4 7/8" bell

Yamaha YTR-8335S: .459" bore, 4 7/8" bell

Jupiter Quantum 5000: .460" bore, 5" bell

System Blue SB10: .459" bore, 5" bell

System Blue SB12: .464" bore, 5" bell

Tama by Kanstul KTP: .470" bore, 5 1/6" bell

Kanstul Model 100 and 102 Powerbore: .470" bore, 5" bell

Andalucia AdVance Series Phase III (includes two models, identical except that one uses Kanstul's powerbore, which is still unexplained): .469" bore, 5 1/4" bell

The Andalucia horns seem to be identical save a slightly larger bell and a shepherd's crook, which is an aesthetic/ergonomic feature (it makes the instrument slightly shorter than a regular trumpet, and is described as being intended to replicate the look and feel of a cornet). It's the same as the difference between an open and closed wrap F attachment on a trombone- none save for the look, although one takes up a little less space. Given that baritones, euphoniums, tubas, bass drums, and guard equipment extend much further from the body than trumpets anyway, it really doesn't make any practical difference. The larger bell might make things a bit louder, but considering what the larger bell on a sousaphone compared to a normal tuba does, it may not be an improvement overall. Ultimately, I doubt we'll really hear a significant difference as a result of the horns, and if we do, I don't think we'll be able to tell the difference between a change in equipment from last year and a change in instruction or overall skill level from last year. Considering I'm marching in a corps that goes on later than them this year and won't see them until championships anyway, I'm highly unlikely to really be able to listen to them anyway.

The Powerbore has a heavy mouthpiece receiver pipe with the shank of the mouthpiece itself being more encased within the receiver pipe---than a traditional receiver pipe, among other things.

http://www.kanstul.net/detail.php?pass_search=102.0000&pass_instrument=Bugle

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[JimF-LowBari]

Went thru the difference between G and Bb but hazy on bugle vs trumpet just like Fran. So thanks all.

PS after reading Bill on page 1, thought early Canadian corps were Bb also. Forget the manufacturer but have pinback of them.

[DAvery]

That's like asking what the difference between a trumpet and cornet is. The difference lies in the shape of the tubing. A trumpet is cylindrical, while cornets and bugles are conical. This gives the instruments a different timbre, and also influences how they blow (free, open, stuffy, etc.)

The bell on bugle is much wider than on the trumpet, which allows it to project more.

edit: I'm not trying to be condescending, just trying to highlight that bugles are different from trumpets, just like cornets are.

Not entirely true. A trumpet is mostly cylindrical and a coronet is mostly conical. If you look at a trumpet you can see there is about 2/3 cylindrical and 1/3 conical. On a coronet that ratio is reversed. I haven't really compared an old 2 valve "bugle" (or one and one valve) to a modern trumpet, but my guess is that the "bugle" would have slightly more than 2/3 of the tubing being cylindrical. It would be interesting to see how much of the tubing is cylindrical vs. conical with this new Bb soprano "bugle".

[Vance]

Hi guys, someone sent me this link and I'm happy to see the discussion of my horns here👍

I'm the owner of Andalucia... So hello to everyone here!!!.

Just a quick over view of the Bb Soprano.

The original King K20 is a very light horn, without the third valve, the horn is extremely powerful, but the sound do spread when reaching its limit. Listen to some 1980's recordings and you will hear that.

When DCI allowed three valve G bugle, the spreading issue were mostly contained but the horns can be very stuffy to play. The nature of G Soprano bugle requires turnings slide to be pushed in on certain notes, so it can be handful to use.

When DCI switched to Bb, several companies tried the bugle bell on the Bb body and they couldn't get the horn to play in tune. I personally believe the reason behind it is due to the fact that big companies will only make horns they think will sell; a trumpet with soprano bell may not be desirable for regular use, so they stop researching after few failed attempted due to potential lack in financial incentive.

There is a trick to make the bell work, but I will plead the fifth for now since the market is fairly cut throat and I don't want to see my horn being copied by another manufacture. The patent and trade mark is pending so I will keep the "soprano" spec low key until I'm protected.

However, I will tell you that the power of the sound comes from the lead pipe, longer the lead pipe, more power you will get. On the trumpet body, simulation is required. I'll leave it at that.

The shepherds crook is vital on this Bb soprano. The byproduct is added warmth to the sound but the functionality is important; again, I'll explain that after my patent and trademark is approved.

My Bb soprano is substantially louder than all other horns listed on the previous thread, and it is extremely free, even through out the register. Due to the nature of Bb body, this horn is actually more superior than the G bugle in many ways - it is easier to play and the intonation is much more stable.

Believe it or not, prior to Raiders, all of my sales were conducted with lead players around Southern California. The Phase II version with Bach 37-flare bell is used by several lead players at Disneyland.

As for the Powerbore, there are two features on the Kanstul soprano that is different than the traditional model. The flare of the bell is narrower and it has a heavy receiver. I only utilized the bell, not the receiver. I don't believe in heavy bracing.

Finally, Ayala HS of California will be using this soprano for the up coming Fall season, including their final performance at Bands of America Grand National.

I personally believe many open class corps will look into my products. World class corps mostly locked in by big manufactures through multi-year contracts, so it may take a few years before one of them give my horn a try... Plus my marching tuba will not be ready till late fall.

[Vance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGBP3EuaGzI

Listen to the sizzle on notes above high C.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Vance

[bill]

Went thru the difference between G and Bb but hazy on bugle vs trumpet just like Fran. So thanks all.

PS after reading Bill on page 1, thought early Canadian corps were Bb also. Forget the manufacturer but have pinback of them.

At one time, if I recall, many corps from Canada were on Bb, Scout House for sure. Maybe the manufacturer was Walley (sp?) Royce?

[CrownBariDad]

<snip>

The Andalucia horns seem to be identical save a slightly larger bell and a shepherd's crook, which is an aesthetic/ergonomic feature (it makes the instrument slightly shorter than a regular trumpet, and is described as being intended to replicate the look and feel of a cornet). It's the same as the difference between an open and closed wrap F attachment on a trombone- none save for the look, although one takes up a little less space.

<snip>

I disagree. It's been my experience the open wrap F-attachment plays a bit less stuffy than the closed wrap, but I personally like the extra bit of resistance. But that's just me.

[Hrothgar15]

Put this horn in the right hands and they are going to sound great IMO...I personally really like the timbre of these horns...

Drum corps is back, baby! Put the world class hornlines on these and

[C.Holland]

I disagree. It's been my experience the open wrap F-attachment plays a bit less stuffy than the closed wrap, but I personally like the extra bit of resistance. But that's just me.

I concur. While I wouldn't trade my vintage 88H for anything in the world, the closed wrap has way more back pressure versus open wrap.

I also rarely use the F-wrap.

[Hrothgar15]

Finally, Ayala HS of California will be using this soprano for the up coming Fall season, including their final performance at Bands of America Grand National.

Interesting that they went with this. Is there a concern that the kids are playing on horns that would never have otherwise been designed for a marching band or concert band?